Cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman and non-dual teacher Rupert Spira meet in a long-form dialogue framed by Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach. Hoffman lays out the conscious-realism case against perceptual realism — that space-time is a species-specific interface, not a window onto reality — while Spira tests the move from cognitive science back to first-person awareness. The two converge on consciousness as primary and diverge on how mathematics and contemplation map onto each other.