Do the Qualities of Non-Dual Being Change Over Time? — Rupert Spira

My question relates to the qualities of the state of non-duality. I had my first experience of non-duality earlier this year and I know you have spent many years coming in and out of that state and I'm wondering for me it's a state that feels very quiet, very peaceful, very aware and I'm drawn to spend more time in it and I'm wondering given all of your years of being in that state if the qualities change if you've noticed changes like when I deepen my meditation I may find new levels of peace new levels of quiet and I know it's a state where there are no thoughts or or things but I still perceive qualities so I'm just wondering if you have perceived different qualities over time of that state if that shifts or or it just always is. >> Yeah. Okay. Allison, first thing to say is that non-duality as you say or or your being or awareness is not a it's not a state. A state is is um is an experience of your mind that comes and goes. You can be in a state of agitation. You can be in a an intoxicated state. You can be in the dream state. You can be in an angry state. These are states of mind that come and go. And non-duality as you call it or or your being or awareness is not a state of the mind that alternates with other states of the mind. It is the background of all states and is most of the time obscured by our states of mind by our agitation um by our loneliness by the perceptions we experience in the waking state by the dream state images and so on. Sometimes there are gaps in our states of mind and through that gap the background of the mind pure being shines and that feels peaceful because its nature is peace. I'll come to that in a minute. That's the first important thing to say that your being is not a state of the mind that alternates with other states. It is the nature of the mind, the essence of the mind, the background of the mind. So let me just give you another analogy on a on a um a gray if the gray clouds in in this analogy represent your states of mind. Every cloud is a state of mind. Feeling of loneliness, sorrow, the dream state, everything you experience, they're all clouds and there are so many of them. There's a just the sky is just all gray clouds and then a little parting in the clouds and a little bit of blue sky appears. And to begin with, you think the blue sky is a blue cloud that's appeared alongside all the other gray clouds. And you think there are lots of gray gray clouds and one blue cloud. Yeah. And then another gap opens up in the clouds and you think, "Oh, there's another blue cloud and another blue cloud." So you think now the sky is partly gray clouds and partly blue clouds. And so there you're you're equating the the sky, the blue sky and the clouds. You're putting them on the same level. But the blue clouds are not blue clouds. the gaps in the gray clouds through which the everpresent blue sky shines through. So your being is like the everpresent blue sky. Now you might say, well, if my being is ever present, why don't I experience it all the time? Well, because of the gray clouds of experience. Well, actually, you do experience your being all the time, but is just like you're always experiencing the sky even when it's cloudy. But the blue sky is so mixed with the gray clouds that all you see are the gray clouds. You are always actually experiencing your being. But your being is so mixed with your experience that you don't experience your being clearly. Your being is obscured or eclipsed by the content of experience. Are you with me so far? >> Yeah. Okay. So, so now to your to to your qu that was just to distinguish between a state of the mind and the nature of the mind. So, now when you you said um I think you said something like I I experienced a state of non-duality 6 months ago. So, what what you really mean is there was a gap in the flow of my experience. Normally I'm just experiencing a thought and then a feeling and then a sensation then another thought then another. So there's this flow of experience with no gaps in between. But then something happened whenever it was 6 months ago that that that caused a pause in the flow of experience and into that pause shone your being. Your being filtered through into that pause and you felt peaceful. But then you wrongly interpreted that as a state of non-duality. It wasn't there. Your your your true nature being was shining through or shining in between in a gap in in your experience. So now to the second part of your question, are there different what are the qualities of of your being? Um and and do they vary? Do they do they change? Uh strictly speaking, no. The blue sky is always the blue sky. It never changes. So strictly speaking, we shouldn't even assign any qualities at all to being. Being is is um devoid of the qualities are the qualities of the clouds. They're pale gray or mid-g gray or dark gray or they're small or they're large or they're moving fast or they're all the qualities are the qualities of experience. The qualities of your thoughts, qualities of feelings, qualities of sensations and per that your being is has no qualities. Has no your being has none of the qualities that characterize your experience. By your experience I mean thoughts, feelings, sensations and perceptions. So your being is strictly speaking devoid of all the qualities that characterize your experience. It is as such qualityless and that's why sometimes in the traditions it's said to be empty or transparent or or these are these qualities these words can try to evoke the the the absence of qualities in in your being. However, in order to try to make um in order to try to make this more experiential, the teaching sometimes suggests for instance that the quality of your being is peace. So now we're assigning a quality to being having said previously that it really didn't have any qualities. Why do we do that? It's because normally your there's the flow of experience and your experience your thoughts are agitated, your feelings are sorrowful, your sensations are painful or pleasurable, the world is and so on. So we tend to describe our being in contrast with the content of experience. So your thoughts are by definition always agitated. Your thoughts are always moving. So in the gap between two thoughts, you experience your being which in contrast to your thoughts is not moving. It is not agitated. So strictly speaking, we should say your being has no movement or no agitation. But if we want to express that in a positive way, we call that peace because peace is the absence of agitation. So it's legitimate. So So now what are the qualities if if we allow ourselves to assign positive qualities to our being, what would those qualities be? Peace as opposed to the agitation that characterizes our thoughts, happiness as opposed to the sorrow that characterizes our feelings, and love as opposed to the conflict that characterizes our relationships. So that's why it is legitimate relatively speaking to say that the nature of being is peace, joy and love. Now would I'm moving on now. Let me ask you answer your last question. So then I want to say something else. The last part of your question which was does the qualities I if we if being does have qualities do those qualities change and deepen? Does the peace deepen? Does the happiness get more intense? Does that strictly speaking? No. For the reason I explained earlier but it it would be legitimate to say yes. the peace gets deeper. What's really happening is that over the years the agitation of your thoughts, the sorrow of your feelings and the con conflict in your relationship diminishes and you feel as a result the peace is getting deeper. The peace isn't really getting deeper. Your being is not Your being is always the same, but it feels as if the peace is getting deeper because there's less and less and less agitation and sorrow in your thoughts and feelings. >> That that makes sense. Does that make sense? >> That's helpful. Yeah, absolutely. Just just one last thing to say which is not in response to your question but I want to say it anyway that it is legitimate to assign positive qualities to being in reference to their contrast the negative qualities of our experience. But if we were to ask being itself what is your experience of yourself without reference to the content of experience. So I know I'm caricaturing being. imagined being could hear and speak and and we were to say to being now what is your experience of yourself but don't refer to thoughts, feelings, sensations and perceptions. Being would never say my nature is peace because it would only do so in reference to the agitation of thoughts. Being would never say my nature is happiness or love because it would not contrast itself with sorrow or conflict. All being would say about itself is I am. That pure I am is being's qualityless experience of itself. That's the pure experience of itself. Which only seems to have qualities with reference to the content of experience. >> Okay. I think I did have a moment then of of that just being because it felt very neutral. >> I'm sure. Yes, that's it. It feels that that's it. You you from what you describe, I am I would suggest there was a gap in your experience. Now, that gap may have been just spontaneous. It can happen. Um Michael Cardio described it very briefly. He he he said um in the moments between sips of tea when your mind is not yet focused on an activity it can administer to the background of consciousness with a kind of consolation or warmth. He's just describing this beautiful moment. You're just sitting. You're having a cup of tea and then in between the two sips of tea there's a pause and your mind is an in an open receptive state but it doesn't latch on to anything. The next sip of tea, the next conversation, the next your mind is just open and receptive and you don't fill it with anything. And in that state, the background of consciousness shines. That's what happened to you. There was a pause. Now there are that that's a kind of natural that that's what I call um a free gift that nature just gives you. There's a pause and an an unsolicited pause in between two sips of tea and into that pause because you don't fill it with another object. Into that pause the piece of your being floods you. There are also experiences that precipitate this pause um that that that that create the pause um in in intense uh sorrow, intense pleasure, um a shock, um the fulfillment of a desire. Um there there are all sorts of experiences that cause a break in the flow of experience and and in that pause that there's there's a a gap opens up into which your your being floods or so those are the um those are the the first example was just um it was just a natural uncaused opening. The second example uh again that they're natural unsolicited but they have a cause. This gap in the flow of your experience is caused by something that happens. Tremendous grief, intense pleasure, the fulfillment of a desire and so on. And then there's a third type of experience that precipitates this pause and that is spiritual practice. your your effort, the effort you make >> to put a pause to to make a pause in your experience, to take your attention away from the content of experience. And any effort you make, any practice you do that that brings you into the now, that takes your mind off the horizontal flow of time and brings you into the vertical dimension of being into the now. That would be your solicited attempt, your conscious attempt to introduce a pause in the flow of your experience into which the being piece of your being can flow. So I don't know what it was that something happened to you six whenever it was it was it would have been one of those three. It might have been a natural pause. might have been an event in your life that caused it or it might have been your conscious effort to to introduce a pause in the flow of your experience. >> Yeah, it was it was meditation. >> Okay. Yeah, that's that's perfect. Yeah, >> great. that that's that's helpful as I go on this path of just you know thinking about because it is very pleasant and it's wonderful to know that is the baseline of my being is this neutrality observer or just being it just feels >> yes >> being >> yes >> and to begin with we experience it intermittently intermittently in the gaps between our experience but then after a while we realize that that in between the gaps it's always there in the background. It's not created aresh with every fresh appearance of it. It it's always there. The blue sky is always there even though it's not always experienced. And once you know that, that is the great secret. That's the great secret that everyone should know that the peace of their being is the background of their experience. Irrespective of what they are experiencing. However intense the thunderstorm, the blue sky is always behind it. It's not a special state and nor does it depend on the content of your experience. It doesn't matter what the condition of your mind or your body, your your relationships, your environment, your your history, your it's not dependent on any of that. It's always present in the background of your experience and therefore always available. All that is necessary is to step off the horizontal line of time and just come back to your being. That that's the that's the great secret that everyone should know. >> I agree. It's very very powerful and especially if you've had trauma or whatever to really know for me that's the base of my being and I can >> continue to experience that more often. >> Yes. Okay. I'm now going to say one more thing about it because you mentioned trauma and and one of the most important things because when when someone feels traumatized or they've been traumatized the overriding feeling is I have been violated that's what trauma is I have been violated nothing that take not configuration of the weather stains or hurts the sky. The sky is never violated by the weather, the lightning, the thunder, whatever happens, however intense or awful it is, it does not leave a trace of itself on the sky. Nothing that has happened to you in your life, it may have scarred your mind, it may have scarred your body, but it has not scarred yourself. yourself, your being is pristine, unharmed, unheard. That is the place of peace. And to know that is the real healing from your trauma. >> Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for your work and beautiful sermon this morning. It touched me deeply. Thank you.