How to Be Certain You Are Awake in Deep Sleep

[The question] is are you happy? I'm yeah  I'm quite happy for my age. So then so   then the second question is, is it conditional  happiness? No. Can you take me there? You'll see. [The question] I had was when you mentioned  sleep. You said that in deep sleep,   so the mind isn't there, it doesn't  remember. So how do we know that I was   awake in deep sleep if I can't remember it?  Yeah it... no, no, I know that I am awake,   because I am always awake. Different. Okay  but I am... No I don't know that I am awake   because there are perceptions. That's very  important because that's what you were implying. You said, if there are no  perceptions in deep sleep,   how do I know that I am awake? Yeah,  if I have no memory of that, yes,   how do I know that I was awake then?  We we cannot memorize our being awake. We can memorize perceptions, but we have no memory of awareness. Yes, I agree. I agree. No, that's crucial, that's  very important. Awareness, we verify it in the   moment, but as we verify it, we understand  that it is always present, but in fact,   what does always present mean? Always present  doesn't mean that it flows with time, it means   it's timeless. Times appear in it appears in it,  changes appear in it, perceptions appear in it.   But we know that we are conscious, not because we  have perceptions, but because we know it directly. Yeah. So, what do you mean by when you said at   some point like 'oh I never sleep  or am asleep'? The body sleeps,   the mind sleeps. Okay but this thought 'oh I  never sleep,' but this happened after sleep,   you're like you woke up and you're like 'oh  yeah I never sleep'. While you're sleeping   you don't say that, you don't say 'oh I never  sleep'. No because I know myself now. I know. Because I know that I'm not in time. To me yesterday and now there is no difference, to you neither. It was the same consciousness  yesterday. No difference. That   which is different is what is perceived. Yeah, but I seem to be able to  revert to this presence, awake,   now for example, but then  it seems to be out of reach. You cannot revert to this presence.  What is there to presence? In order to revert to the presence,  you need to have left the presence. So who is it or what is it that has left  the presence and reverts to the presence? I don't really know how to explain... in my... Yeah, it's not clear. Basically, all I can say  if you ask me, do you ever sleep? I would say,   I don't know. Probably not even. But this thing  with sleep is a little bit murky still. Okay. So okay. So I agree that the consciousness now is   the same one as yesterday. No let  me, let me, let's go slowly. Okay. If you say, I go to sleep, what does that mean as an experience? Just a blankness. Everything's  blank. I close my eyes, I wake up,   and then the world appears again. But in  between, there's nothing as far as I know.   Okay. How do you know that there is nothing?  In order to know that there is nothing,   experientially, you need to perceive this nothing.  I can say that there was an absence before I   went to bed and I wake up. I can tell nothing  happened between event A and event B. I could   agree with you that you don't have a recollection  of perceptions. Uhm. That's all you can say. Yeah.   This is what I mean by nothing. Yeah. But does  that mean that consciousness is not present? I   can say no because the body is alive still, that's  as far as I can go. But not because of some kind   of experience that I can, like you said, that I  can recall. I can't... while I'm in deep sleep,   I can't have the thought 'am I consciousness, am  I here?' that hasn't... Without that I'm not too   sure how to validate. Whatever you pretend  to be your experience during deep sleep, you cannot pretend that you are  not conscious during deep sleep,   because in order to experience you should  be able to experience your absence. If you   claim I am absent as consciousness in deep  sleep, if you say it from experience it   means a weird experience whereby consciousness is  experiencing its own absence. How is it possible? It's not possible to experience absence. Whoever   makes the statement that  consciousness may not exist, never makes this statement from experience,  it's a belief system. It's a green little   human beings on Mars. So basically, you're  saying that I must have been there and said,   "Hey, look, I wasn't there." And that's  impossible. What I'm saying is that if   you believe that you are absent, in deep  sleep, you're kidding yourself. Yeah, I   know it doesn't sound right. I'm just saying that  just the experience itself... doesn't I mean...  I should be able to say with certainty  no? If there's some kind of experience   that I can bring and say yeah. Well you cannot  be... you cannot... you are seeking certainty   where you cannot find it. You are seeking  certainty, phenomenal certainty, and that,   there is no certainty in phenomena. Because  any phenomenal... phenomenon that we deem to   be certain, could still be a dream. Therefore, we  cannot derive any certainty from any perception because it could be a dream,  therefore, an illusion. So, you would like to have a proof of something  through a means of proof, perception, which no   matter what would leave you dissatisfied, because  you cannot reach the certainty you seek there. Any knowledge about consciousness, any  question you ask about consciousness,   such as: Is consciousness present during  sleep? You cannot derive it from anything   which is perceived by consciousness. Mhm.  So stop seeking it where you cannot find it.   That's the only reasonable, intelligent  conclusion you can reach. Stop seeking what you are seeking, where you cannot  find it. The only place where we can get   information on consciousness, for instance,  is consciousness present during sleep,   can only be found in consciousness,  through the experience of consciousness. And when we ask consciousness:   Did you stop and go? Do you stop and go?  What does consciousness say? No, my dear. Yeah. What I'm saying is this, so if I ask,   like if I check consciousness form, and it  is here every time it is checked, then I can   say it must have been also during deep sleep.  See it must have. No, because this assumption is... I mean what you're saying  implies that consciousness is in   time, evolves in time. That's the  hidden assumption you're making. Yeah. The thing with sleep is through reason rather than... and   when I say it I can revert back to conscious,  I mean this, like I can check am I conscious? And it's like yes, but I can't seem to be  able to do that in deep sleep or I can say   am I conscious? And then check, and then I can  say yeah. That must also have happened,   but this certainty that I have now I don't seem  to have... You are seeking in the wrong place. But   you have questions about consciousness. You see,  for instance, you ask a question and my answer it:   You are seeking it, the answer to your  question, in the wrong place. Or your   question is based on a hidden assumption that is  not verified by the experience of consciousness. I am taking you to the experience of  consciousness and something... You   have changed over the years since  I have known you. These changes don't manifest right away with this experience  that I never sleep, that consciousness is... It comes gradually to you through  this investigation that... It's a process that has been started and does  its work within and at some point, we realize,   oh yeah I never sleep. And when we realize that,  we realize that that has been the case for a long   time. But when we were trying to ask ourselves  about this experience Francis talks about,   that I never sleep, we were looking in  the wrong place you see. And at some point   we realize... It's like a... let's assume  this you have a headache, you take Tylenol at some point down the road, you realize oh my  headache has disappeared. You don't know when,   at which point, it has disappeared. But  you see, same thing, I don't I feel to be aware at all times and then, at  some point, you say, oh yes that's   my experience. In the meantime, I go back  to the experience of Tylenol, let's assume instead of asking yourself the question: Do  I still have a headache? And then the answer   will be no more, because Tylenol  has already its effect. Instead of asking the right question, you ask the  question, do I have pain in my foot? You may have or may not have pain in your  foot, but it's irrelevant to your headache.   In other words, you are not asking  the wrong question you don't... so,   you don't know about your headache. It may have  disappeared, it may still be there. At some   point in this, because all metaphors have their  limitations... In fact, with the first glimpse,   it's like it's as if when you take the Tylenol,  the headache would disappear instantaneously. But you ask the wrong question about the pain  in the foot, the pain in the knees, the pain... If you were to ask immediately the question:   Do I still have a headache?  Looking at your head, you say no. At some point, finally, you look in the  right place. You look at your head. No,   no headache. Same thing here. Am I  conscious? You look at the right place. I'm always conscious. I am consciousness, always.  I never... it's a light that never goes off. And beside, the experience that  it could go off is impossible,   that we can understand. How can I experientially  verify the absence of consciousness without   being conscious? And if I am conscious,  consciousness is not absent. Therefore, the absence of consciousness is an impossibility  experientially. Are you getting that? It's   impossible experientially. It is tantamount to  also the possibility of absolute nothingness. Absolute nothingness is an impossibility, why?  Because there is already something rather than   nothing. If there is something rather than  nothing, whatever is, can never go away. That which is never ceases to be. That which   is not never comes into being.  Nothing comes out of nothing.   That's from the vantage point of reality, the same  understanding as there is from the vantage point   of consciousness that the experience of consciousness is an impossibility. Because there is always consciousness, that's   simple. Why is there always consciousness?  Because consciousness is real, out of time. Time comes out of consciousness,  not consciousness out of time.   Space comes out of consciousness,  not consciousness out of space.