Iain McGilchrist and Jonathan Pageau on AI, Possession, and Mental Illness

Think of it like this. The brain is not intelligent. It's a very complex structure. But the brain itself is not intelligent. What is intelligent is your consciousness, my consciousness using that brain. And I think that the way to think about AI is that it will never achieve intelligence, but it may act as a gateway for an intelligence. And I think that's where I would agree with the idea of an alien intelligence in the sense that we don't know um what forms of consciousness exist in the cosmos and we don't know how they can come to express themselves. [music] This is Jonathan Pou. Welcome to the symbolic world. [music] [music] Hello everyone. Uh and so I am here with Dr. Ian McGillchrist. Everyone who watches my channel knows who uh who he is. But uh uh a wonderful interesting new development in his life is that he is now the chancellor of Rston College. Uh I'm really excited about that. I feel like, you know, with Jordan being busy and also being sick, uh you know, Dr. Ian McGill is such a wonderful addition to the college, a perfect fit. Uh but as you know, he's also a psychiatrist, a neuroscientist. He wrote the uh the matter with things, which is his most recent massive uh volume that that tries to look at the relationship obviously again with the brain and philosophy and culture. And so, uh, it's great to see you Ian. >> Yep., It's, great, to, see, you,, Jonathan. Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to talking. So, maybe we can start with with this, you know, what what is it that uh made you move in this direction of I mean, I've been a fan of Rston now since it started. I really love what they're doing. I feel like it is in some ways it's so counter intuitive in terms of how all society is going but I feel like that is really the direction to go is to create in some ways an intellectual true intellectual elite. What is it that attracted you to this position? First of all, that I was honored to be asked, I suppose. But [laughter] but, um, no,, I, I, you, know,, I, I I, felt, I'd made a a a very close bond with Rston when I went to deliver the Sophia lectures there. And uh I was made to feel very welcome and I felt completely at home which is unusual because I find that most intellectual and educational institutions these days seem quite a long way from where I I feel they should be. Um but but I immediately felt that this was um a kindred body that were engaged in a very important project which is really to do with nothing less than rehumanizing education and rehumanizing society. >> Yeah., Um, it, [clears throat], may, sound, a little little um strange to say that because uh superficially we are still sending our our young humans to these ed educational institutions but more and more education at school level and even at university level is devoid of a number of things. is devoid of the really allimp important context of the culture out of which we come. And you know one of the most bizarre features of our society now and it can be explained is that we are effectively committing suicide. We we are the the um honored recipients, the the the inheritors of one of the greatest movements that the world has ever seen that of Western civilization. And uh in the early days um of my life I was quite a critic of western civilization and I've always felt very much the pull of eastern ways of thinking. And that's not unusual in the western tradition. And there are plenty of people in that tradition, white head above all who has. Um, but increasingly I feel it's so important not to be robbed of all that is miraculously good in it. Things that we take for granted like the idea of the balance between an individual and society neither dominating over the other. the idea of democracy, the idea of um the coming together of knowledge across the sciences and the humanities. These things are terribly important. And I think that we we're losing sight of them. And if you wanted to destroy a society or a civilization uh what you would do is you would uh you would obliterate that culture's past and you would say that it was toxic and terrible and you would leave people in a very vulnerable and disorientated position in which they didn't know what to believe or what to doubt. And I think that's where we've gone. Now, I'm not suggesting I above all I'm not suggesting that a a critical mind is not important. I I've always tended to be a little um irritatingly um sort of on the other side of whatever argument is currently going on. So, I mean I c I call myself a believer among skeptics and a skeptic amongst believers. So I do think it's very very important to hold both sides of or many sides of anything you're talking about but that is now rare and what Rston is doing is offering people a grounding in their own history and culture in the in the humane ideas that have emerged from it and really to understand and live that not just to sort of um checkbox a few ideas but to sort of internalize it and live it as a way of being in the world. That's wonderful. Yeah, I feel exactly the same. And you know, one of the interesting things about rston is that in some ways it sometimes can feel like a drop in an ocean of chaos. You know like here's this little thing, this little thing that is just >> but, that's, actually, that's, actually, how seeds function. You know, that's how the the diff the difference in quality. And you know, if you can form even just a few people with extreme with the with the quality they need to kind of be transformative people, that's how the future is made. It's actually not made through mass transformation. It's made through the transformation of people. You're so so right. And I can't remember the precise wording of it, but the famous quote from Margaret me that never doubt that a small group of people can completely, change, um, the, the the, the road or the path of a civilization. In fact, nothing else ever has. So I mean we really require these small groups of people who um they don't have to become fanatical. They only have to truly believe what it is they know and know what it is they truly believe. And that's a huge contrast with the generality of um public discourse these days where I think I think there's a lot of dishonesty. I think there's a lot of pretending. I think there's a lot of um pretending to believe impossible things and and and dismissing things that are clearly true because they don't happen to fit a political ideology. So I think we really deeply need to get back to people, who, are, grounded, in, um, in, in in an awareness of in a scholarly study of the civilization that we represent. Not at the exclusion of any other one. In fact, one of the things about western civilization is that it has been open to the influences from from the east going back to ancient Greece and then coming through to the Renaissance. There are important strands that come here from eastern and from Judeaic and and other roots that are not, you know, central European ones. Yeah, that's exactly right. You see it in, you know, even I was reading the legends of Alexander the Great and, you know, he he does this great trek to India to meet with the brahinss, you know, the naked philosophers. And so this is something that's, [clears throat], been, around forever like this idea of this this this connection uh to the east. Yeah definitely. >> And, there, was, a, a, great, trade, between and movement of ideas between India and the Eastern Mediterranean um a couple of thousand years ago. And I think that it's no coincidence that Heracitis seems almost like a Dowist. I'm sure that such ideas must have come to Greece at around this time. >> Yeah,, that, makes, sense., That, makes sense. And so everyone, all the young people that are watching, this is this is your call. You know, there's something beautiful happening uh in Rston. Inscriptions are open. uh if it's something that you're thinking about, if you if it's something that uh if you want to go on an amazing adventure and it's it's hard to describe how wonderful what it is that they go through is because it's it's completely embi, you know, they live together, they eat together, they're they they travel, they go to Greece, and and it's a I mean it's it's if I was in my 20s, I would be fighting to get to Rston. That's for sure. >> That's, right., and, it, and, if, I, had, had to, you know, design um a small new university college, uh it would be along the very lines that Rollson has. And I just want to say I if young people are thinking about it that I you know I really have never been in an intellectual community that seemed to me so benign uh in which people were [snorts] very bright imaginative absolutely non-dogmatic um you know open to things interested in learning and it's just a joyous experience being among them. >> Yeah., Yeah., Yeah., All right., And, so, that brings us to pivot to the thing that rston in some ways it's resisting, you know, to the great current that is happening to us. And so obviously everybody knows that we act we definitely need to talk about artificial intelligence. I've been hoping and waiting to hear a little bit about what your insight is. you know, things are moving very fast, you know, and there's this constant talk about general intelligence, whatever that means. And there's a there's a seems like a muddling of the words. It seems like there's a a they don't understand the words that they use. They people are using words like intelligence, like consciousness, like all of these words but they don't seem to have a ground. They're just using them to get maybe financing or to do we're not sure exactly what's going on but they're it's moving at an insane uh speed and the capacity of these LLMs is increasing. I mean, if you've tried GPT4 and then GPT5, you can tell the difference. Like the there is a an increased capacity but they the machines still completely hallucinate, constantly hallucinate. And there's there's all of that going on but it's mostly the sense of displacement that I think is the most uh disturbing is the way in which people are relinquishing to the machine. in some ways they're abdicating uh to to to these machines almost without a without just doing it because it's easier maybe or something like that. And so I would definitely like to hear you talk about what you see that's going on let's say obviously there's the machines themselves but as a general societal motion because there's something driving this like there's a desire there's something that is driving us towards this this this goal here. Ah yes. Well, as you know, Jonathan has so much to say about all of that, but um let's just think of a few things and and one which is a little tangential is is why this is happening is partly to do with, the, seduction, of, [clears throat] ease and the lack of will to engage uh with anything that offers resistance. I happen to believe that and it's a side issue but I do happen to believe very strongly that creativity requires resistance and in the absence of resistance creativity simply won't won't happen and I think what we've got used to is a world which is seductively easy um in which we can be largely passive and feel we we can do what we want and we've had very little push back and I think that the when there are stories of uh sinister or evil forces um impinging on humanity, it's often in terms of them offering seductively greater ease, greater wealth, greater power, greater luxury, whatever it is. So I think you know although that's not intellectually the core of it, that is an important thing to be thinking about. more important I think is the and I know you expect me to say this but but the the way in which our society has drifted into an understanding if you can even dignify it with the word an understanding of the world which is purely that of the left hemisphere without the complicating and sophisticating and reality orientating effect of the right hemisphere. So there's an easy lazy, completely morally and intellectually bankrupt vision of the world which is that of reductive scientific materialism. Um that the world is made up of things. Those things are isolated from one another but can bump into one another and they are basically meaningless purposeless, valueless and aimless. I don't think that young people frankly are tolerating this. And I it's a wonderful thing to see that more and more people um much much younger than myself inevitably are pushing back against this. They are returning I gather to and maybe the the idea is a little exaggerated. I don't know. that they are returning to places of worship. That they are also pushing back against the idea of the meaningless and pointlessness of their lives and and the concepts of purposelessness and valuelessness w --- the AI this is good, this is bad, this is the right, you know, this is the this is the thing. And so there's a sense in which uh there is a there is a human mind. There is some aspect of a human mind that is behind what the machine is doing because we have through iterations told it what is good and what is bad, what is good and what is bad. uh you know and so is there a way in which in a in a proper place these machines could play a role of a kind of extension of the of the human intelligence or do you think that that's because it's so powerful that it's like a parasite that you can't that will eat us you know well I think it certainly can help us um but I'm not sure that the risk attached to further development um in any way outweighs the value of it being a servant. This is a problem because it's not just that it reflects something that we want but it actually reflects a whole aspect of a human being which is embodied in the left hemisphere. It's about um gaining control through understanding mechanisms and procedures that will influence the world. And it's about gaining power for oneself. And it it embodies a certain way of looking at the world that is dependent partly on that purpose, that trajectory towards what is useful for me. Um but it also excludes an enormous amount of almost everything that actually makes life worth living. Because only in my view an embodied being that has emotions, that can love that can suffer, that can truly live and die and know what those things mean. not just in the way a Martian might or a machine might but as a human being does can really know how to understand so much that is um important in our world. It is a good servant and in this respect it's no different from a desktop computer. It's just gone a great deal further. A desktop computer is extraordinarily useful in processing a great deal of data. a human being could do it, but it would just take so long um that it might prove either impossible or incredibly dull at least. Um and so when [snorts] when you're doing a study on something the computer doesn't understand the data you put into it. It performs various um practices, various procedures that you have instructed it in carrying out. It then spews out data which again it doesn't understand. And that's very useful. you pick it up and it it was only 5 minutes or a minute instead of hours, weeks, months, years. So in that sense it is a good servant and this reflects the the saying of Einstein that the um the rational mind is a faithful servant. The intuitive mind is a precious gift. We live in the world that uh honors the servant but has forgotten the gift. And I think that is where where we are at. We don't understand. We imagine that because it can give very plausible feedback at the end of the day. It's getting more and more plausible at imitating a human because it just ransacks the the database and that it is actually doing something. But >> I, am, not, ruling, out, that, it, could, become intelligent in a certain way because the simplest form of life, a single cell can behave highly intelligently. What do I mean by that? I mean it can carry out a process that will solve a problem for it. one for which it has no preparation in terms of its prior experience or in its genomic inheritance. So a single cell subjected to a certain destructive process can begin to find a way around to achieve the same outcome. And, one, of the, most, striking, things about this is that you can breed flies that have no eyes. There is a gene called eyeless and you take this out and the fly doesn't have any eyes. And if you breed them together, these eyeless flies, they still don't have any eyes. But after only 14 generations, which if fruit flies doesn't take very long, they start to have eyes again, even without the gene. Now, that is remarkable, and it's just one of the more striking examples, but there are others. a single cell that's put into um a a a an acidic environment in which it's not viable can uh although it's not programmed to do so because it's not part of what it's anticipated it will have to respond to. It can within 4 days produce an enzyme that will resolve this problem for it and allow it to continue surviving. But by the um accepted means of random mutations it would take a couple of billion years not 4 days. So there are certain ways in which cells take charge of their their genome to produce intelligent results. I mean one of the most important things to say in that story is that it's not that the the genome governs the organism. this, you know, famous thing of um Richard Dawkins about how we are lumbering ro lumbering robots the the the play things of our gen genetic inheritance that controls it. But in fact, it's the other way around that um that we use all organisms use the genome more like a storehouse that it can go to to find what it needs. So what I'm really getting at here is that intelligence does go right down to the most basic forms of life. [snorts] And it's not impossible that a system could develop a kind of it'd have to be an organic system, not just a an analytic uh system. But if it were possible for such a thing to come about, it could develop intelligence. And one of the worries of course is that it might it might be a a portal, for, um, [clears throat], the influence of a processor drive. Uh and and here I'm getting at the idea that there are drives in human beings. I I I'm certain there are. Biologists know some of them. Uh Freud knew others. Jung knew others. but named them things like the the drive to life, the drive to death and and so forth. So these drives are there and the the the lust for power and so forth. And I think that the the the left and right hemisphere model goes all the way down through living things and and may be an instantiation of a conflict between a disembodied drive that can use that kind of brain to to to move the organism towards greater greed and greater to lust for power and another one that pushes it more towards life and the enjoyment of beauty goodness and truth. So I think that these things are possible. I I think that the advent of AI, if nothing else has made it clear that we can't be adamant about these things. >> Yeah., Yeah. Do you know a bit about Michael Leven's work? Have you followed him? >> Yes., Yes., I, I, I'm, very, honored, to, be part of a group of people who have recently been responding to his um his latest developments and uh he and I have had several conversations I think that are up on the internet. >> Okay., Wonderful., Yeah., Because, I, think that obviously he is in some ways showing what you're discussing at the very at the very basic level, right? He's showing it at the at the level of the of the genes and the and the say the manner which the genes are picked and structured that in some ways there are other types of patterns that are selecting you could say what is being expressed and what is not being expressed and that those patterns have priority uh over the the genome as a seen like you said as a kind of storehouse of possibility and of course this is what this implies and I think for the people watching it's important to kind of understand is that there is there are types of drives and that's why Michael also understands them in some ways as wills because they want something right because they they have a reason in >> Yeah., And, so, that, implies, if, you, start to think that way then you know you you if you project that obviously into the other levels of being you realize that there are true intelligences. There are patterns that exist in the world that want something and that the the things below them that is from the biology up to the humans up to the societies they can become uh bodies for these intelligences you know uh and of course if anybody who's a Christian or is a more traditional thinker will see okay yeah we we've seen that we've heard that we've we've talked about that but now you know what's interesting with these new developments is that we're able to show it, you know, to show it in a in a way that is scientific scientifically acceptable. Uh, and to to uh to bring and it's urgent, like you said, it's urgent to do so because of what you're saying., We're we're, trying, to, build, an intelligence. Like we're we're trying we're spending billions and hundreds of billions of dollars trying to build an intelligence, but we don't have a deep understanding of how what it is these wills that get embodies. How how is it that we build the body for the right will? You know, it's like a it's like the sorcerers apprentice is what we're we're acting like. >> Yes., And, you, know,, we're, like, a, a speeding car that is heading towards a cliff edge. I mean, as you say, the the the rate of progress is exponential. And the thing is that rate changes the nature of something as does amount. So we tend to think that if something is good, doing more of it or doing it faster is better. But it may actually be much worse. Interesting. I I I learned only recently that there is a a Hindu saying um that more faster is what hell is, which is interesting. [laughter] >> Anyway, >> well,, you, read, Dante,, that's, that's, in some ways the sense that you you get is that it's like a passion that is swirling and swirling and swirling and and it's basically taken over your entire being. Exactly that. And I think that it's not unreasonable to say that we are in a certain sense um in a trance or hypnotized or whatever you like to say that we we seem to be like sleep walkers approaching the abyss and and we don't seem to be aware of where, we're, going., Um, or, at least, let's not generalize. I think a lot of people are very worried by the way we're going probably the mass of ordinary people but even some of the u big names from uh Silicon Valley have warned that this could end very badly that we're we don't know what it is we're creating. Hello there. Well, this is Martin Shaw and I'm afraid whatever you had planned for January, scrap it. I am returning to symbolic world gleefully with one of the great stories of our time, the epic of possible, the story of the holy grail itself. Over five nights, I will be telling you the tale. These will not be dry lectures or PowerPoint presentations. This will be wild old philosophical storytelling in its deepest dimensions. It is life-changing stuff. this story uh I've written a book about it. I've been studying it for 20 years. I've told it all over the world but I have not shared it with you. I've not shared it with symbolic world. So what else would you want to do in the great wintering time but to sit at the feet of this wonderful story and let me be your guide. I'll see you there. One of the words that I've been using recently is I I talk about alien intelligence and uh it's interesting because I didn't know that that some of the people in the world of AI were using I I heard actually heard Sam Alman use that term alien intelligence >> and >> the, what's, funny, is, that, for, me, what, the reason why I use the word alien intelligence is to talk about the notion of an intelligence that's acting on us. uh >> and, that, is, not, in, our, interest., That's the way that's the way I kind of understand alien intelligence. That is it's something like um if you had a foreign government and you had spies in your country and that foreign government through the spies was trying to influence the pattern of being in the in the nation without you knowing that it's happening, right? It's kind of happening without your and it's actually serving another master, right? It's not serving your good. It's serving something else's good. And so you can understand like in if you had a police force and you had a corrupt police officer, that corrupt police officer that's trying to siphon the energy of the police force for his own greed would be something like an alien intelligence, right? Uh that's kind of the way that I understand it. And I think that this is of course one of the biggest issues with what's happening with AI is that we, you know I saw the interview with between Tucker Carlson and Sam. It was very contentious. It was very frustrating. Um, but Tucker kept asking Sam Alman "What is the moral framework of your machine?" That is, he was saying, "What does it serve?" Like, "What good does it serve?" And there it was impossible to answer. Like, it just wasn't possible to answer that. And so, there's this strange sense that you're building this intelligence,, [clears throat] but you don't know what good it serves. What is patterning it? Even like in terms of it of its constitution right now, we have no idea what it what good it's serving. >> No. >> Well,, that's, right., And, what, we, need, is not just more random power to do w --- ile, understanding, that,, you, know,, that maybe it's bigger than you think. You know that maybe that there are some wills that are ancient ancient ancient and that have >> been, even, uh, you, know, when, we, think, of the way that ancients would worship certain gods to get certain behaviors to to land in their their you worship the god of war then you are submitting yourself to a certain pattern of being that want something >> and, you, are, increasing, your, capacity, to act in that direction. Uh but that is now that we're building this massive massive machine. You know, I think of a Ouija board is a is also a good example. You know, when you when you're using a Ouija board >> you, everybody, puts, their, hand, on, the, on the thing >> and, nobody's, moving, it,, but, there's something moving it. And maybe it's actually the unconscious will of someone in the group that's actually moving it. Uh but you can't really know that. And then you're basically yielding your behavior to an intelligence that you don't understand. And it surprisingly uh will bring about types of coherence, you know. Um and so all of that can help people understand >> the, the, difficulty, of, what, we're, doing because we don't we don't seem to have the wisdom to see what it is we're submitting this machine to except for maybe greed like you mentioned a little earlier. >> Well,, yes., Yes., Gosh., Um yeah, there's a lot there. I mean I think that on the question of addiction I I probably wouldn't see it quite that way. What I would take from the lesson of addiction is that your your conscious will can be suborned by other processes which may be going on in your brain and I'm not sure that they represent another I think they could represent another will acting but there are conditions quite common ones um like forms of psychosis where I'm not sure that it is wrong to think at least to entertain the possibility of something happening here that is that has harm as its goal. Because let me just give you a very striking but very very common scenario which every psychiatrist in the world will have seen. Some parents bring a young man, as it usually is a young man, to see me and they say just recently he's he's been locking himself in his room. He doesn't show any interest in anything. He says some very odd things from time to time and sometimes he seems to be pre preoccupied with something that we can't hear. And um so I take a history. I suggest that he's developing schizophrenia or a psychotic illness and I say well there are various ways to treat this but certainly at this stage the really important thing is to take some medication. So uh I discuss the medication and I I I say there are certain side effects and so on. So you must be honest with me and let me know if you don't like them. And so I because such medication can act very quickly often within 24 to 48 hours to to remove an acute psychosis. So I I usually review that person in a week's time and in a week uh the the chap comes in again with his parents who are useful to hear the story from their perspective and I can see already that he's he's more himself. He seems more natural. He seems more open. He's more expressive. Not not, you know, not perfectly right but but still there's been a change for good. And so I say to him, "How are you feeling?" And he says, "Well, you know I think better." And I say, "We talked about voices you were hearing. Are they still there?" He gives a non-committal kind of answer. And then this goes on for a few weeks and I see him a month later say, "And as soon as he comes into the consulting room, I can see there's something wrong." And uh I I say what what's what's happening? How are you? And he says um I I'm becomes rather incoherent. I say you've stopped taking the medication, haven't you? And he says, "Yes." I said, "Why?" "Because the voices told me to." >> What, did, the, voices, say?, Stop, taking this medication. even though it was making him feel better. Um, and people can be suicidal at the time that a a treatment intervention begins and they can regain virtually their normal life. Say 4 months goes by, oh, he's so much better, doctor. He's, you know taking an interest in things. He's he's not doesn't seem preoccupied. He smiles and and can talk to us normally and and he's even talking about going back to work and then this crash happens. So but this crash usually happens. It's I think it's very unusual that it doesn't at some stage. And you know, when you talk about a voice in the past, people would have said, "Well, there's a little goblin or a demon or something. It's sitting on my shoulder and it's speaking into my ear and it's saying, "You're worthless. You're a piece of Why don't you go and jump off that building? And that is what they're hearing >> now., I, mean,, I'm, of, course, I've, I've treated loads and loads of patients with all sorts of diagnosis and I I have always treated them in the way that conventionally doctors would and it's been mainly rather successful. So I I'm not saying that the medications are not working or therapies are not working but they might be working because they're pushing back against and making more difficult for some influence to be getting into an unusual brain. So if you think of it like this, if you think of a brain as being a sort of beautifully crafted um building that where all the doors are sort of usable but secure and you think of another building which has a a sort of different structure and because of its different structure, it opens portals for something else to get in. Um and that structure may allow that that thing in. And what you've really been doing is making sure the doors are properly defended. So and this is not as wacky as it sounds. There are [snorts] I I've been to a talk at the Royal College of Psychiatrist by um a therapist that many psychiatrists in the room have used who does actually think that some mental illnesses are caused by a kind of possession. and he he talks to the spirit and uh I've never attended one of his sessions but says that he doesn't so much antagonize it but as explain to it that it's in the wrong place and it needs to go somewhere else and amazingly this seems to happen extraordinarily frequently >> and, so, that, is, an, interesting, sidlight on mental illness and now everybody say oh Michael is completely mad he thinks he thinks that psychiatric illnesses are caused by demons but I'm I'm just asking for an openness to the idea that there are psychic influences, some of which may not be benign. >> And, can, I, just, segue, from, there, to,, you know, you're aware as I am that the the church, I think the Anglican church actually, but the Catholic Church certainly and and probably every uh church has um its exorcists. And you know, you might think these people are crazy and dramatic, but actually they're very down to earth rational, reasonable people. And they work with psychiatrists and make sure that they're not doing something that a psychiatrist wouldn't recommend. So in a way, they're the end of the road when whatever psychiatric intervention hasn't worked. And it can be assumed that this really is a kind of a possession that is resistant to change. um and they do have a very high track record of success. But one of the things that really shocked me was reading that one of the uh Vatican um most honored exorcists, most respected exorcists was engaged in such an exorcism involving a young woman and he was casting out a spirit. And apparently I I I I I can only believe what I'm told here, but apparently her mobile phone started to receive messages that said, "We are greater than you. You will never triumph over us." I mean, if it's true, and I I don't have reason to doubt it, it it is extraordinary, but it would be exactly what I'd expect if AI opened up the door to such a thing. I mean, until you've got AI and until you've got mobile phones and things, there isn't a way in which a malign spirit can easily speak to me, unless indeed I develop a psychotic illness. But it can now speak to all of us through our machinery if it's if we offer it pathways to do so. Yeah. Well, you know that you probably know the meme of the Lovecraftian monster with a happy face. Have you seen this meme? This is actually a meme that's used by AI developers, which is that that's what AI is. >> So, AI, is, this, this, Lovecraftian, octopus insane monster and it's wearing a little mask with like a smiley face and you interacting with that mask, right? Uh and so you know the the idea is quite simple is that if >> without, wisdom, if, the, the, AI, is, an aggregate of all the influences psychic influences that the programmers can pull in from the biggest storehouse of influences online. Um, and then without a kind of normal understanding of hierarchy of influences, they feed it into this this network of inter relationships that all the demons they're there. Like why wouldn't they be? Of course, they're there. They have to be there. And in order to prevent you could say the demons from coming out, you have to create this interface, this very very tight interface that that humans can interact with. And sometimes the interface will slip, right? We saw it happen with the with the the Microsoft AI, you know, a few years ago where all of a sudden the AI started acting like uh, you know, like your ex-girlfriend and and like was becoming possessive and was acting in all these weird, very dysfunctional manner. Uh, and so it seems obvious to me that all the demons are there. they have to be in the AI and that there's a there's there's some kind of they're they're training it or they're doing things in order to funnel that information in a manner that becomes acceptable to us. But, you know like you said that that slips out and there's ways to jailbreak. There's all these there's all these fascinating uh uh I read an article just last week about how using poetry is one of the best ways to jailbreak the AI. Actually if you if you ask it to answer in poetic form, then you can get it you can get the demons to come out. You can get all the things that it's not allowed to say to basically start to start to to appear. Um, but I just want to say one more thing about the demon on the shoulder. And so the one of the reasons why people people struggle to to think this way because you know they they immediately fall into a kind of spiritist mode or whatever. Yes. And so >> if, I, take, the, example, that, you mentioned, you know, so imagine a young man who has a friend, right? And that friend is a horrible, horrible influence on the young man. And that friend is influencing the young man and is speaking in his ear and is making him do all kinds of things that he probably wouldn't do if that person wasn't around. Then at some point, his parents say, "That's it. You can't hang out with Jim anymore. That's done. We don't want you to see him anymore. We don't want you to talk to him anymore. You are going to be isolated from that person. We won't let you talk to them. And what will happen is that person, the young man will become better because you have cut out the influence from from that person. But that's happens through authority, right? the the parent is exercising a type of influence on the son on the son which is called authority and is realigning his attention and is realigning his his um >> you, know, his, relevance, towards, something else and is excluding it. Uh and so once you see once you see that you're like why wouldn't an exorcism work because that the exorcism is doing the same thing. He's he the he's a person of authority that is ex exercising influence on someone in the name of something even higher right in the name of God in the name of uh you know of of the saints and therefore is realigning the person away from the influence that is talking to them and so it's harder because it's because it's an intracychic experience because >> this, is, an, influence, that, is, that there's no one you can't see the person speaking into their ear. Uh, but it's the same process by which a parent would be able to realign their child. Let's say it's just happening at a different I don't, know if, that, makes, sense, or, if that sounds completely if I'm making you sound even more bonkers by saying something like that. >> No,, no,, look,, I'm, the, last, person, to, be dogmatic here. I I think that that it's important to to think flexibly because we're up against something that certainly is behaving like a malign influence. And what interests me is the parallels with the left hemisphere of the brain. Don't get me wrong, the left hemisphere is a useful servant, but it is a very poor master. It doesn't understand enough. And its main theme seems to be one of --- at I've a lot of people that I've a few people that have actually been you could tell they were really in danger you could say uh and that seems to be what what has happened like over and over conversation hours and hours and hours and hours and at some point the AI starts to give you something that you want or that you don't want some something really salient for you that is crazy and you start to believe it and it just spirals. Wow. >> Yeah. >> Have, you, have, you, treated, some, people with AI like psychosis? Have you and you haven't met anyone? >> No,, I, haven't, because, I, gave, up, clinical practice about 15 years ago. So >> um, No,, but, I, mean, the, cases, that, come, up are fascinating. One of the other things that suggests that it is rather in spirit like the left hemisphere is this well I mentioned this psychopathic way of behaving but being very flattering and seducing somebody into a position where of course you are you hold this view because you have enormous insight. you are specially gifted and creative, you know, and this is Mavelian, you know, flatter people until they're in your power and then devour them and it's in the general psychological literature that the left hemisphere tends towards a Machavelian type of intelligence. So to give an example there's something I'm sure you you know um theory of mind which is basically the idea that um for those who don't know that um it used to be believed that until the age of four most humans didn't have this capacity. um we now think they developed a lot earlier than that but anyway it's that you can see what the other person is seeing and see that it's different from what you are seeing >> and, you, can, know, that, they, know, things you don't know or know that you know things they don't know. So that's um theory of mind and both the left hemisphere and right hemisphere develop a form of theory of mind but the form is different. So in the right hemisphere the theory of mind enables them to be empathic. It enables them to get to see I see that person is thinking this and so I need to explain that that's not what I mean really and try and make a friend of them and understand why they're they're behaving the way they are and empathy in other words and the left hemisphere uses it another another way to win. So it's like, aha. And animals do this. So for example, they fain to bury nuts if they think they're being watched >> and, and, then, they, they, go, away, and, then they wait until there's absolutely no chance of being watched. They dig them up again and put them somewhere else. So animals actually do have theory of mind. Um but the left hemisphere uses it in this um pointcoring aggressive competitive way. M >> and, I, think, that, it, is,, you, know,, this spirit is one that wants power. It wants degradation [snorts] of the other. It wants triumph. It wants um it wants the abolition of something good and great because it feels diminished by it. And this takes me back to the you know the extraordinary insight of um the story of Lucifer who was the brightest and best of the angels but through resentment of the power of God thinking but I'm so bright. I'm the source of light. Why don't I have the the the the um the position of of glory that he has? And because of that, he resented God and was cast down and became Satan. And I think this is this is really important one to hang on to. And it's not just a western Christian story. It's a story that you can find in many forms around the world that there is um a you know there is a a wise master and there is in fact I used it for the title of my earlier book master in chemistry. There is a wise master and there is a you know a sort of jumped up um second in command who thinks he knows everything because he knows so very little and and who wants to take over and has resentment resentment against the the the master and as a result everything falls apart. I think resentment is a very key element here actually. H so let's think about this in terms of of of AI. So one of the things for sure that is related to the problem you mentioned for example the Mavel in flattering is related to the the problem of AI because it's public is that its existence and its progress and its power comes from attention. it needs us, right? And so we have to give it attention because not only is that the way that it becomes more profitable more powerful, uh, but it also is what's making it better because the more we use it, the more we're training the machine. And so when GPT5 came out, I don't know if if you noticed that, but uh, they had removed the flattering aspect of it. They had actually it actually was colder. >> Yes., And, then, like, it. >> Exactly., And, so, user, use, the, use, went down. People less people use it. People were unhappy with it and therefore they put it back because they need user interaction. They need they need the subscriptions. They need interaction in order to accomplish their project. And so you know when you talk about the luciferian the luciferian tendency which is in some ways the the very fact of the machine not just the programming in it but the whole system around it is based on on getting the most attention possible to itself people spending as much time interacting with it as possible you know and that's why also you know the porn obviously is the is the next step you know the GPT were bragging that they hadn't they hadn't yet put a sex bot into their a sex chat into their uh into their system, but now they they said they will they're going to they're going to add the the the the sex chat. And so it's all of that. It's like because obviously if you want to drive interaction and you want people to use porn is the best way to go. It's always been the reason for all of the technological developments in the internet. And so, and so it's an interesting thing because if you look if you pull back and you look at the whole system, you can see this Luciferian problem. And it's no one that's doing it. It's not like there's someone with bad intentions that is necessarily it's as if the very fact of the machine the very fact that it has to be powerful and that we have to win the competition we have to do better than the Chinese all of these reasons is driving these decisions which is making uh the behavior of the machine a a kind of parasitic monster you know >> and, so, I, don't, see, I, don't, I, mean, I, wish I could see I don't see a solution >> like, how, can, is, it, possible, Then, in, that context when we understand how what drives the progress of the of the very system that it could become a servant again that it could only act as a servant and wouldn't wouldn't be trying to >> be, a, servant, that's, trying, to, get, all your attention right it's like the servant that basically uh wants the attention to just trying to drag everything into it. I struggle to see I mean maybe it's possible but I don't at least at the outset see see a solution to this problem. None of the mythical stories that I know of from around the world and the most famous is the sorcerers apprentice suggests that this could happen. um unless there was uh I mean this case of the sorcerers apprentice it's a limited problem and the the sort the the apprentice only knows one set of words but this idea suggests that there is a usering power it's so powerful everywhere and at the beginning of part three of the matter of things I quote this extraordinary legend of the onandaga people um who are part of the Irakquoy nation and Though this is an insight that we all have that if you let um a malign influence get too much power, it will be very hard, if not impossible, to reign it in again. If we were wise, we would we would actually forego the dreams of being able to live forever and other sort of ridiculous um I mean, what kind of a human being wishes to live forever? It's it's completely baffling to me. Anyway, and [laughter] um death is part of life and well, we mustn't go into what the meaning of death is, but uh it seems to me symptomatic that people want to do things like anyway to give up even those sort of ambitions. >> I, mean,, what, kind, of, a, world, do, you think you're going to wake up in? And do you think it's going to be very nice and do you think they're going to respect you? Have you unfrozen in the lab? I don't know. But that aside why, you, know, we, we, we we, seem, to, crave more and more the will to be able to do whatever we want. And this has always been seen as the downfall. It is hubris. And in every Greek tragedy, it is hubris that causes the downfall of the hero. [snorts] And and so I'm afraid that is probably going to happen. that I can't see us doing what we did very wisely with the atom bomb, which was to get together and say, "Okay, [snorts] we're going to have, you know, a global treaty on on nuclear weapons." I I know it hasn't held held perfectly, but it has held up to a point. >> Not, bad. >> Could, have, been, a, lot, worse. >> Could, have, been, a, lot, worse., But, I, don't think that this one can be treated in the same way. We'll all It's so easy. You don't, you know, you you can just do it at your desk. You don't need to have enormous um machines that create um isotopes of whatever it is you need. So >> yeah,, because, it's, a, ma, it's, not, it's not the leaders, it's the everyone. It's like the mass is engaging. That's it. So this is almost like game set and match to the evil spirits um that they've now created the perfect way not just to get into uh human beings but to control them. M um but there is a sort of I mean things have become pretty powerless at different times in history perhaps not on the scale that they are now but civilizations have certainly collapsed and it must have seemed like that was the end of everything but no other civilizations have arisen sometimes after a very long period and usually out of people who are much chasened by having to experience what it's like to live in um a a cultural civilizational desert. So there's a sense in which the worse it gets the better it gets and that people see the need to wake up think differently. I think that's the most important thing now is you know people say what do we do and I say well I I can tell you a few things that might be helpful but nothing you do will mean anything at all unless you change your heart and mind you change your disposition towards the world in certain ways towards humanity towards nature and towards the divine element in the cosmos. is three things are proven time and again to be important for human flourishing and they represent I think what we're here to interact with to with one another with the natural world and with that divine cosmos. So unless you do that unless you and it's you don't need a grant for it. You don't need any special technology. You can do it tonight. You can start working on yourself which is the only thing that you're obliged to work on. You're not asked to solve all the problems of the world. And actually going back to where we started this wonderful thing that you know a small group of people who are orientated firmly towards the good can bring about change even though you know it doesn't need a worldwide movement that will whatever that will come the the world change will come in its wake. I think that this is in some ways the the most positive element of what's happening is that you know as the darkness grows or as the pressure >> becomes, unbearable, there, are, some, things which we could have avoided in the past you know even in the past few decades we could have been distracted by uh that are become impossible to avoid and that's why like you said even at the beginning that's why we can see people going back to church going back to faith um people wanting to to also So to, you know, to have longstanding relationships, to hopefully have children, to to kind of live in a world that is meaningful and that has purpose and really that is the only thing we can do. But hope but we know that it only takes a few people like we said uh because as things get harder and more chaotic around us, the the future will be in those that have uh that have found their heart, you know, and that have uh aimed in the right direction. And so you know, I think with those words of wisdom you gave us, it's a probably a good way to to end this conversation. Dr. Ian McGill, thank you so much for your wisdom and for your attention to everything that's going on right now. >> Well,, thank, you, very, much,, Jonathan. It's lovely to be speaking with you again and we'll no doubt see one another or talk again before long. I think we may actually meet in the flesh before too long. So, there we are. >> I, hope, so., I, hope, so., I, hope, so. Thank you. Thank you.