How to Get Out of Your Head — Joseph Goldstein and Sam Harris

Staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on or they'll proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/garantee for details. AT&T. Connecting changes everything. Joseph Goldstein. Sam Harris, welcome back to the show. >> Great to see you both. >> Preparing both of you for this conversation has been like negotiating the Dayton Accords. So, uh, let's, uh, let's start, uh, with the subject of non-duality. And I'm going tee this up for a second. Sam and I have talked about non-duality on this show. Um, I think it's such an important uh, issue. It's it's great to revisit it. Joseph, I don't think you and I have really gotten into it in such a big way. What do you mean when you use the term non-duality and and I guess as an add-on, what does it matter to the rank and file meditator? kind of one of the things that came out of our our endless back and forths about this uh both this conversation and this topic uh I took a little deeper dive into really researching how this term non-duality has been used and I was kind of surprised in a way although a little bit familiar with it that it really can refer to several different things and so it does feel important important first to understand the different ways that the term non-duality can be used and then to define how we're using it in any particular context. Um just one other kind of footnote when I was looking at the different meanings of it I was struck by the fact that some meanings really cross traditions that in all the terra mahayana vadriana some of the meanings of non-duality can be found the same one can be found in all of them and other meanings of non-duality are really specific to particular traditions So, I thought that was pretty interesting and perhaps one of the reasons for some confusion, you know, because if we're not really precise about how we're using the term, then it's going to be hard to have conversations about it with anyone. So, these are just there were I think around four or five different meanings or how how the term non-duality was used. one that is kind of uncontroversial and it's really quite limited I think uh in the terravada tradition one of the ways it's used there are other other meanings of non-duality in the tradition also but one of them is just the nonduality of the unified mind in absorption in Janna practice you know where there's that unification in the absorption it could a like the infinite space or infinite consciousness and a total unification in that. Then >> when you say absorption and janna what does that mean? >> Okay. So in the terravada tradition and in uh the the early Buddhist sutas the Buddha makes a lot of reference to the development of deep states of concentration you know and there's a a series of ascending levels of absorption where the mind is unified on a single object. So it's the fact that it's unified on a single object that it could be expressed as being nondual in that state. Um yeah and Janna is just the poly word for these different states of deep absorption or unification of mind. Yeah there so that's the basic meaning of it. This meaning of non-duality I think is very straightforward and uh other traditions don't give that much importance to Janna as part of the practice this this level of samadei. Uh so I just wanted to mention this this is not really the one that's most interesting to me. So a few of the other meanings or ways the term is being used across traditions is the nonduality between existence and non-existence. Right? So that duality is collapsed uh in the understanding that one can't can say or uh claim things to be either existent or non-existent and that's reflective in the law of dependent origination that everything arises out of conditions and passes away. So to say things are existent doesn't acknowledge the continual passing away of things and to say things are non-existent doesn't acknowledge the Orion scheme. So dependent origination just collapses that dichotomy. And so that's one way the term nonduel is being used with reference to the duality of existence and non-existence. Okay. So this you know it's a little bit technical but I've come across that a lot in teachings in various traditions. Another meaning of non-duality and this is really specific to particular traditions does not does not cross over the nonduality of samsara and nirvana right which is a very common expression in uh Mahayana and vadriana teachings and it's based on a certain metaphysics of what nirvana means means in those in those traditions in terraada the distinction between nirvana and samsara is very uh definitive because the meaning of nirvana is different in that tradition than the later ones. So non-duality here is the non-duality of samsara and vanak but it's very tradition spec specific that that particular meaning. >> Can you define mahayana vajriana samsara and nirvana? [laughter] >> Okay, >> you have a couple of hours. >> Yes. Well, your your question is samsara. >> Yeah. Well, >> good point, [laughter] Sam. >> Wait, wait, wait, Sam. I thought our implicit deal was any abuse verbally was going to be directed at Joseph. >> Yeah. >> You can abuse Dan. That's okay. [laughter] >> Okay. >> I already have minus one point. I'm I'm keeping a score. You know, the teachings all began uh with the historical Buddha, you know, who lived somewhere around between 500 and 400 B.CE. Uh and after his death and over many centuries, the teachings transformed and evolved and changed in different ways. So terraada is the name of one of the early traditions of the teachings. It means path of the elders. But then as Buddhism spread, Mayana was a later development in in the teachings and it began to emphasize the bodhicattva ideal that is practicing for the attainment of Buddhahood in the sense of really practicing to attain the Buddha mind. You know, all of this it's footnotes to everything I'm saying now. So uh but I'm trying to just give you know an overarching thing. So terravada was an earlier expression of the teachings. Mahayana came later and after that when Buddhism was brought to Tibet uh another whole tradition developed of Vadriana which we know mostly now through Tibetan Buddhism. uh and that includes many different kinds of practices but one that we've talked a lot about uh are Zoen uh practice and Mahammudra practice which are quite explicitly expressed as nondual traditions. So I don't know if that does that cover what you are hoping for Dan. Yes, absolutely. Uh it did leave out samsara and nirvana and I know that's a particularly tricky uh deceptively uh uh simple or complex question actually because the definitions of samsara and nirvana are different as you referred to depending on the tradition but can you just give us a brief overview? Yeah. So in the terravada tradition, samsara refers to all conditioned phenomena. Everything that arises because of causes and therefore impermanent kind of unreliable because everything's impermanent you know and selfless. So samsara is just every aspect of our experience including awareness because in terraada awareness itself consciousness itself is seen as dependently arising as a conditioned phenomena. in Terravada Mirana is that reality and it's called it's been referred to with a lot of different uh I don't know if epithets is the right word unborn unformed uncreated unfabricated a lot of uns in it uh but the key point in understanding different traditions is that in this notion of nirvana it transcends ends awareness. It transcends consciousness in the later traditions. Okay, we're I'm going to allude to something which is going to lead to another definition of the non-duel. But for example in zoen which is part of the vajadreana tradition nonduality refers to the inseparable unity of clarity or the knowing aspect of mind awareness the inseparable unity of awareness and emptiness. And nirvana is seen as being the recognition of that unity and samsara is described as that delusion of not seeing that unity. So in that way of understanding the quality of awareness is seen as unconditioned an unconditioned awareness which has this clarity aspect of knowing but also it's empty aspect insubstantial selfless can't be found and yet the knowing is there and so that's the basic difference in the understanding of Sara and Nirvana. In the earlier tradition, Nirvana transcends awareness. In the later traditions, awareness itself can be experienced as the ultimate reality. >> I can imagine at this point in the conversation, some of the folks that I'm describing as kind of rank and file meditators might be thinking, "What does this matter to me? I'm just trying to be less stressed, less owned by my emotions." Yes. Yes. >> I'm I'm prepared to weigh in on that, but Joseph, you didn't get to your final definition of non-duality. >> Great. >> So, you need to land keeping [laughter] >> Yeah. >> I'm I'm glad you're keeping track. >> Yeah. >> You're paying attention. Good. This is so the last one, the last definition of non-duality, which in some way may be the most relevant as we begin to look at how it how it impacts you know just us as practitioners and that is the non non-duality as being the nonseparation of observer and observed. So the dualistic perception would be there's an observer and then that which is observed right and and seeing that duality. So one meaning of non-duality is the collapse of that subject object distinction. Uh and this meaning of non-duality can be found across traditions. uh and this is the one that I think might we might unpack as having [clears throat] you know impact in how we're living in the world and how we're experiencing things but just to end this is this is the end of my rap but to respond to that question which I think is fundamental to this whole discussion uh is what does it matter right you know I Sam and I and you uh have rather philosophic minds. So, you know, we can get into this just for the joy of the discussion of it. But in terms of you know for just a practitioner who just wants to uh have a little more ease in their lives I think the bottom line in all the traditions is coming to the end of suffering you know and what alleviates suffering in our minds in our lives and to see whether any of the things I mentioned or how they would contribute to the end of suffering or But I think for me anyway that's the bottom line. That's that's the point of it all. It's not it's not about some philosophic view apart from does it alleviate suffering or not. So again for me that that is really the fundamental question as we discuss duality non-duality you know and anything else we might get into. >> Today's episode is brought to you by Fablettics. I was working out this morning [music] in my Fablettics. I had actually been thinking a lot lately about the fact that I work out all the time but my workout gear is just busted. [music] And then Fabletics swooped in as an advertiser on this show, sent me a bunch of stuff, and now I look and feel great while I'm hitting the gym. But this is not just about [music] stuff to wear in the gym. If you're like me and you live in active wear, you really can never have enough of this stuff. But the good stuff usually [music] costs a fortune, which is why I'm really into Fablettics now. I get pieces that feel premium and perform like the expensive brands without [music] the crazy price tag. Becoming a Fablettics VIP is simple. When you sign up as a new VIP, you get --- have to cease to do something that is obscuring that way of seeing in this next moment. And you can do that without turning the lights out, without going elsewhere, without shleing up the mountain from the base, without doing lots of work. It's it's actually is it is in fact coincident with with um the your experience in this moment. And there's a there's a there's a an act of misperception, a kind of false cognition, an illusion that is present that has to be cut through. And so that so the not so there's a reason to I would just say you know kind of pre theoretically or just you know on the on the basis of no experience just just uh [snorts] a priori there's a reason to think that that would be the case because all these traditions ex claim that it's comp it's totally possible to be a Buddha who drives a car right or walks across the street without getting run over and obviously that Buddha is seeing and hearing and smelling and tasting and touching right so um but as far as the non-dual so all the the your three definitions of non-duality leaving aside Janna all sort of collapse into the last one in in my experience and in in what I believe is in fact the view of Zjen which is to say that when you overcome this false distinction this elucory distinction between subject and object I in the moment of experience right so you're seeing you know the full contents of your visual field there's this sense of there being a sear and the things seen. If you look into that matter closely enough in the way that that um uh would be uh recommended by by a Zchen teacher or or really any of these other non-dual teachers, it's possible to recognize that that dichotomy is false and that what in fact exists is this open and inexpressable condition which in zogen is called rigpo which is you know their non-dual awareness. Um you can call it consciousness you can call it awareness but it's what what you're what you're or you can call it emptiness right so and and those two designations you know consciousness awareness rigpa on the one side or emptiness on the other strike a slightly different emphasis I mean the consciousness and awareness is the first person character of it like the what it's like to be you emptiness is more the kind of third person descriptive character of what's left when you cease to divide reality into into parts and into this sub this basic subject object framing. And that and that's where it seems to me those three other definitions of non-duality kind of merge because when you're no longer when you no longer have a sense that you're the subject and everything is still appearing, right? It's so and there's it's from this ocean point of view, it's it's not true to say that it's now one thing. It's not this monistic fusing of everything. It's not a unity experience. Although it's easy to see how people could kind of misdescribe it that way because there is no because it's not just one thing because everything in all its diversity continues to appear, right? So it's not like it hasn't you haven't been reduced to just kind of some >> blob, >> you know, lack of intelligence where you can no longer discriminate. If someone says, "Can you hear the bird?" Yes, you can hear the bird. And yet from the the in the for hearing from the perspective of there being no one who hears leaves a a um a continuous and open and inexpressable totality which uh has a kind of paradoxical quality to it. Right? So in some sense a bird is not really a bird. Right? So and this is where the those other notions of emptiness come in in a slightly different sense. Like the first one you gave Joseph was with respect to dependent origination which is so so to to uh to assert the existence of something is to deny impermanence. Um and yet to deny its existence is to deny that it arose in the first place. So there's this kind of inscrable dual non-duality there. I would I would change the emphasis a little bit and move it from impermanence to just the fact that um this is more kind of more of like a majamica view of the situation. Uh things don't have an a an independent existence even when they're present in some basic sense, right? So like the borders of things are are specified conceptually and when you erode your hold on those concepts you begin to see that that you know you know that you know the mountain isn't really quite a mountain even though you even though something seems to be happening right so first there is a mountain then there is is no mountain then there is but the but the then there is state that final state the non-dual version of it is you recognize that in some sense It's the mountain as though seen in a mirror, right? Like that like like there's the reality of of anything is is provisional and is somehow emergent out of this totality of that is in fact inexpressable and and is coincident with awareness. So >> just I'm going to stay with the pointy edge of the stick here in terms of what does this matter? How how does this matter uh for a regular person? And I think what you said there was something to the effect of if you can tap into what we're calling non-dual awareness, then you don't take your anger, your panic, whatever afflictive mo emotion so seriously uh and and therefore it is way less afflictive, maybe 0% afflictive. >> Yes. So I I'd like to bring in one other term here that that Joseph is very fond of um because I think it it will help us dissect the difference here if there's a difference exists. So Jo Joseph often wants to say that all of this everything we've just said is just academic and and of of kind of secondary importance because the real promise of the dharma the real practice uh and the and the purpose toward which any one of these methods whatever their metaphysical views uh is applied is non-clinging. Right? Non-clinging is the practice and that is what liberates the mind. And so you if if if the sochan tradition and the terra tradition have a different view about what it takes to to uh to get to to practice non-clinging. Well, okay. But there's still still where the rubber meets the road is are you clinging or are you not? And that's that's the difference. Is that is that fair, Joseph? I mean, I just don't Do you want to sign on the dotted line there or or >> it might be it might be helpful to to to just say what clinging is, >> right? >> Well, that well there I think we we might find some difference of opinion. So that that's that's part of the rub there, but um I mean so so Joseph just you feel free to respond to that, but I do have a I would love to complete the thought about how this relates to the difference between the two views. I would ascribe to that, but it would take some further explanation of why. And one of the difficulties which I'm beginning to notice in the conversation is that you have a young brain and can remember everything. >> Not so young. >> And I [laughter] have an old brain and there were a lot of points you made and each one I wanted to respond to. This is Look, look at this polite way of saying that I'm long- winded. [laughter] >> Sam, you clearly like the sound of your own voice. [laughter] >> All right. So, so let me just give you something very punctate to respond to. So, so, so as to not uh over overly tax your >> No, no. Well, there are a few points I want to make. >> Okay, go for it. Well, I I do think this will sharpen things up. So, so if let's agree that that clinging is really if if it's not the only important thing, it's among the most important things. It's really kind of at the center of the bullseye of what we're talking about here, however we define it. Um and I would say that that um it is possible that it is possible to have a view of clinging that is dualistic that that that allows you to practice in a way where it seems like you're not clinging and in fact you are no longer clinging on the basis of this view and yet you're still perceiving reality dualistically. Right? So, and and maybe an analogy would help here. So, there's this classic analogy in I'm not even sure it's Buddhist. It's may may just be Indian, but this classic analogy in the Dharma of of mistaking a a coiled rope for a snake, right? You see a coiled object in the corner of a room, you glance at it and you think it's a snake. Uh, and then on further inspection, you realize it's a rope. Now, let's just for the purpose of this analogy, let's have that be that that that realization, that cutting through illusion. That's the that's the the dual duality non-duality illusion. So it's duality to think it it's a snake and um it's you know you recognize non-duality uh when you recognize that it's a rope, right? It's It's not >> Wait, wait, wait. How does that follow? >> Well, I'm just ju just just just use that use that I'm not just I'm not saying that it's not a perfect analogy. Just just go with me for a second here. It's it's possible to practice in such a way that you still think there's a snake over there, but you have achieved real equinimity about there being a snake over there, right? You're no longer experiencing aversion. You're no longer experiencing desire to get away. You're just you you really have a balanced mind and yet you are still taken in by this this underlying illusion that you're in the presence of a snake. And I would say that the same can be done with dualistic mindfulness where you feel like there's this subtle division between subject and object. You are the you are consciousness is arising spontaneously and totally unencumbered by aversion or desire. uh you're noticing impermanence and yet there's this there's this the snake again not a perfect analogy but the snake that is present here is this sense of subject object separation uh again this the reason why this matters is that it can seem to be self-confirming right and you can maintain this orbit for quite some time at least in my experience and yet you can seem to yet the clinging is gone what we're calling clinging in this case is the desire for experience to be any other way than it is. Right? You're not you're not pushing the the unpleasantness away. You're not grasping at the pleasantness. There's no the the the the emotional tone of of what I'm calling clinging. The contraction in the face of unpleasantness and the graspiness in the place of pleasantness that has been relaxed and yet duality remains. That in my view is a problem. uh you know a serious problem but and but I'm the first claim is just that that is possible. >> First to say that a lot of what you said I agree with and I I I don't see actually that much difference and with some of the things you said some of the others not. So there are a few points that just I'm remembering from the beginning >> you know of what you were saying in terms of your example of yeah of course the Buddhas living in the world right and seeing hearing smelling so this so contrasting that to the terravada view is missing one point of of the different ways nirvana is described in terravada. So one meaning of it is the sessation of the defilement. So the poly word for defilement uh unh wholesome states is calaca. So it's called kala nirvana >> because it's the eradication of the defilement. The other expression or manifestation of nibbana nirvana is within the tradition clar tradition is that experience where the very aggregates of existence are no longer there which is in that understanding is what happens at the death of an armed and so there is the complete acknowledgment that the enlightened mind living in t --- bidhama definition, which is a very specific way of relating to things. I'm including in it things like clinging, desire >> to self, >> grasping, conceit to anything. But conceit is is the I am. Wrong view is the belief in a self. Craving is the sense of this belongs to me. So each of these >> I think we can add one more piece which seems to to be um related here. I mean you can talk about it separately but it it does seem to be attached to the same >> uh erroneous cognition which is identification with thought. >> Yeah. >> Right. Absolutely. >> The sense that this thought is me, you know. >> Abs. Absolutely. [clears throat] >> So, so Joseph, you but you've just stumbled upon I think the the core truth of Zogchen, which you know, in my view, the only real difference between clinging and non-clinging that that you need to consider is the difference between duality and non-duality. Right? I mean, it's cutting through dualistic clinging. It's cutting through dualistic fixation to use the common zchin phrase that unties all these knots right and then this is this is what ker ripe was saying if he was in fact if he didn't in fact say that that in aware if it's if it's awareness there's there's no clinging if there's clinging there's not awareness meaningba mean meaning non-dual awareness um it's if you cut in through the knot of of dualism untangles all these things and I'm glad you brought in mana conceit, you know, which is because that's just another shading of the same >> Yeah. >> illusion, which is this the sense of of, you know, that I am the the I am the same subject that was here a moment ago or last year. But so it it really is that that is the so this is why it's a little question be a little question begging to say it's all a matter of clinging uh without really defining what you mean by clinging from the zogchan side the the the root clinging really is is in this subject object dichotomy that is cut through in in recognizing rigpa and then all of this is resolved and it is from the from that view and in that experience an experience of what you're calling kala nabana I I and this is where the the some of the paradoxes of of the vajana view also come in it's that's true even in the presence of kasa right like so let's say you feel a moment of anger right you know version uh which is you know testifies to your unenlightenment you know certainly from the the um [snorts] the terravada view But that moment of anger recognized right becomes the same non-dual openness and emptiness and great perfection e and and the crucial bit is that that's true even before the physiology of anger has dissipated right like even like anger like so so this whole this you know these weird tantric phrases you meet in in in vadriana teaching like you know you know anger dawn as wisdom right? You know, how is how is that anything other than just weird PR for this, you know, this hierarchical view? Um, it it it's empirically true when you can experience it, when your mindfulness is such that you're recognizing anger as a mere expression of the totality of emptiness from a from a non-dual point of view. What I would argue, and this is why it matters, Dan, is that it's possible to practice in a dualistic way such that you're noticing anger mindfully and your mindfulness then appears to be this sort of remedial provisional uh gradually cultivating uh um practice which is not revealing to you in that moment. moment the utter freedom that is compatible with with with emptiness and and non-dual recognition. What is revealing to you is this sort of this yet another moment of kind of balanced mediocrity like like balance like like [laughter] like like you're you're you're trying not to be like like you're you're it's a vigil. The vigil continues. you're still waiting to get to get somewhere even as you're balancing the factors of equinimity and you're I mean I mean this is the the crucial bit for me Joseph is that either a moment of mindfulness is good enough or it isn't right and you can't fake it right you can't like you can lie you can you can hope it's good enough you can wish it was good enough you can say you but but the question is is it really good enough is it really a moment moment of freedom or is it this or are you still waiting on some subtle level for your experience to change for to to become enlightened to get somewhere? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And and and so so my question to you is why isn't Cala Nibana good enough? >> Right? Like if Cala Nana is Nabana is really available in the next moment. I mean you might doubt whether it is but if you if you agree that it is if you like if your passive voice gets you to a recognizable experience of kala nana wherein you don't find the evidence of your unenlightenment even in the presence of anger that just arose the moment before and now it's just this inscraably empty display of of of energy. Why isn't why isn't it good enough to experience that cala nabana in that next moment? >> You know those moments when someone just takes care of something for you? [music] That's what AT&T is doing with the AT&T guarantee. Staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on or they will proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee because staying connected isn't optional. It's essential. And AT&T wants you to feel that somebody's got your back. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/g guarantee for details. AT&T connecting changes everything. [music] I think what he's saying is that most of us practice mindfulness or many of us practice mindfulness in a way where anger might arise and we feel like the subject the point of awareness witnessing this anger separate from us in our consciousness in some way. And we might be able to reduce our suffering by breaking or by putting the anger through a cheese grater, you know, like seeing that it's it manifests as rumbling in the chest, redness in the ears, uh starburst of self-righteous thoughts >> and no longer being identified with the thoughts that were making you angry. Is that >> correct? But but that is missing a crucial non-dual piece which is to see by separating yourself out and viewing it dualistically you are um missing an aspect of freedom that would be a that is not available in the way he's saying you teach Joseph as opposed to the way he teaches >> but I do say >> yeah I I wouldn't have put that that final invidious uh flourish on [laughter] But, uh, you could you could take that as implied. Um, the only other thing I would add is that you can't you're you're condemned for that to be so. I mean, everyone has to start where they they start, right? And everyone basically everyone starts from a dualistic place where they feel like they're a subject having to learn to meditate and they want to get somewhere and they're suffering and so the the dualism and the seeking and the distance of the goal is all implied by the very structure of the practice in the beginning. uh the the unique capacity of a of a non-dual insight is that it obiates all of that and then you can then you can then practice the goal so that there's no distance between you and the goal and and if there is a distance if there's a seeming distance between you and the goal you can't I mean that's just the way things seem and then you you're condemned to to feel that way about each moment of of awareness. >> Okay. And and the goal in this just to put a fine point on the goal in this context is back to this bajia suta that Joseph referenced earlier which >> that's one way of describing the experience. Yeah. >> Yeah. [clears throat] It's it's a classic um just for the listener who don't who doesn't might not remember it. This is a something the Buddha is said to have said uh in a so-called suta which is a teaching of the uh of the Buddha in in the classical texts where some guy named Baja asked him about uh the nature of freedom and he said something like in the seeing is just the scene in the hearing is just the heard. So with the anger, it's just there's no me witnessing my anger. It's just anger angering and there's an enormous amount of freedom in that because you don't need to take it so personally. And >> even anger anger isn't even anger at that point really. I mean again it's just a display of of of uh awareness or emptiness depending on how you want to describe it. Again, I'm not putting I I don't let's not open the door to the crazy wisdom teachings and all the dysfunction that that follows their thereupon in in vajrana Buddhism. So, I'm not saying I'm not I'm not recommending that people not view anger as as something to be avoided or mitigated, etc. All that all that's fine as a matter of practice. I'm just saying that either a moment of mindfulness really delivers the goods of freedom no matter what's happening or it doesn't or or it's a method that you're applying to an otherwise problematic circumstance that is samsara right so in my view only non only non-dual mindfulness cashes the check of samsara and nirvana are one right otherwise you're just you might believe that but you're not experiencing that and and there's no reason to say that. [clears throat] >> There's there's so much uh >> so much heresy. That's what I I [laughter] hit you with with buckets of heresy so that you >> with your thimble can just [laughter] try to clean them up. Yeah, I think it's really important to recognize that the goals are different to use the frame of Zoen and non-duality as you're expressing it posits a certain understanding of what Nirvana is. Well, well, well, it need not Joseph. It actually need not. We could leave all of the metaphysics and the views aside. I'm just talking about certain experiences are available in the present moment. >> Yes. >> And you're either having them or not. >> Yes. >> In the present moment. >> Okay. I think it may have more important implications than but I'll leave it aside for the moment. Just as in Zoen where people are giving given the pointing out instructions and you know and so they're beginning to practice nondual awareness that does not mean that people are actually experiencing it. And again, I I think it was Sony or maybe somebody else. You know, you fake it till you make it. You keep practicing and you know in this way and that way until you finally land at what it really means but it's not like that understanding is immediately available necessarily for there will be some people for whom it is but I would suggest that it's much rarer than you may believe because it's possible to be approximating what's called rigpuck but not really. >> Okay. So, but let let me just translate that back into my language just so because it that doesn't really that's not a counterpoint to anything I would want to say because in my language that's just to say that some significant percentage of people try to practice ochen and they fail or they so they're not really or they might be say they might say they're practicing it but they're not. So there's and there's a diff there's an important difference there and I would totally acknowledge that that's the case but that but that's that's not zoggen practice that's the that's the failure mode of the zoggen >> teach yeah so so I would say the same thing is true of the deeper understanding of mindfulness and that what you're describing that people can be practicing mindfulness in a dualistic way in the way you're talking about But when you really get down to what mindfulness in its fullness or in its depth means, many peopl --- people or really or virtually anyone is is motivated by a abstract conception of an end point that may or may not be attractive to them, right? It's not it's not that people are shopping for for descriptions of the goal and then are then finding a ton of motivation based on their favorite flavor of the goal as articulated by one tradition or another. It's much more the case that virtually everyone starts with this very compelling sense that they have a self and that that's a problem. Right? And then the question is what do you do from that starting point? And the the the the immense power of vaposa you terraat of vaposa is that you can offer that person that confused and suffering person a practice that is totally straightforward and non-p paradoxical and it's just here do this right I understand where you're stuck I I understand how things seem to you there's some a few things you should notice right now like for instance you're just spending all your time lost in thought and you're so lost in thought you can't even notice that. So here pay attention to the breath and see if you can do that and notice how hard it is to do that. And now as you begin to train in that and begin to notice things, notice a few other things. Notice impermanence. Notice and and notice how everything's impermanent. And now get notice how you're getting a little more concentrated. And again, you can walk up from from the bottom of the mountain here or seem to in a way that is not confusing. It's not it's not easy. It can take years and years and years and it can be very frustrating etc etc. But it's not paradoxical. It's not zen. It's not zogchen. It's not advita. It's not you're already free. It's not nirvana one. It's not you can't polish a brick into a mirror. It's not show me your mind and I'll pacify it. It's none of that, you know, high fallutin It's it's like going to the gym to get muscles, right? Like Arnold's you got you got a picture of Arnold Schwarzenegger on the wall. He did it. He's going to tell you how to do it. Just start lifting heavier objects, right? Eat more protein, lift heavy things. Non-p paradoxical, right? Um that is its immense strength, but that is also its weakness, right? It it the weakness is it can keep someone feeling like they've got a problem to solve and then now they know how to solve it and that can that can endure for a very very long time. And what I'm saying is that in my experience there is a shift that is available in how one how one experiences mindfulness where mindfulness no longer becomes a practice. It no longer be no longer becomes a style of meditation. It no longer becomes a a remedy for this apparent problem of clinging or selfhood or suffering or it becomes a recognition of a prior condition which is always already the case which is just non-dual awareness or emptiness or whatever you want to call it. And it's available now always already and and it need not be uh snuck up on or by by virtue of any other um sustained practice. It can just be recognized as just ordinary or the ordinary state of consciousness in in any present moment. Um, and so I would just say, so the advice to the listener is that this can be a very frustrating uh thing to hear. uh and looking trying to trying to make your experience of mindfulness non-duel can be can be frustrating and and um all the teachings around that which you know many of which can be found in in in over the the waking up app or in you know in in zochin teaching or in in advite teaching and there's different flavors of methodology in talking about this you know the talking around this liinal moment moment of how dualistic mindfulness becomes non-dualist dualistic mindfulness. I would just say that there is a difference there to be discovered and you on some level I I would say you shouldn't be satisfied until you're satisfied, right? Like like you there is a use that frustration as a key to to further inquiry, right? It's not um and and I would say that that frustration bears witness to this to this predicament which is it is possible to to practice dualistically for a very long time and and the frustration of that occasion is built in to the circumstance because on some level though you might want to encourage a very different vibe the vibe is a kind of a superficial change in attitude Dude, it doesn't really it doesn't really give you the freedom you're looking for until it does, right? And so and and and so I would just, you know, it's it's a perhaps a bitter pill to swallow, but I I I would counsel um honesty around the frustration, right? Honesty around the insufficiency of of mindfulness if it feels insufficient, right? Right. I mean just again you everyone has to start somewhere. I'm not saying you don't start with dualistic mindfulness as everyone as virtually everyone does. Of course you do, right? I mean that's and and it's it is the only preliminary practice to dualistic mindfulness. But um I just I just think that it's it's appropriate to be frustrated if you still you still feel like you're working on a problem when you're meditating and when you're when you're paying attention to the present moment. >> Joseph, just in in closing here, uh let's go back to your passive voice. I have heard [clears throat] from so many of people who show up at my events and subscribers um when I talk about you know I I often will teach you been give you full credit this this practice of you know you I'll do some sort of stabilization concentration practice like loving kindness or focus on the breath and then I'll open up to um uh open awareness with the non with the passive voice in there and I hear from a lot of people like I don't get it. And so I'm just curious, what's your advice to them? My advice generally is just keep knocking at the door generally and you might see something interesting over time, but don't get too sweaty about it. Just keep trying it um gingerly and persistently. Would you agree with that? And what what else would you add? >> No, I I think that's that's good advice. And there also a lot of other approaches. you know all everything we're discussing is really a skillful means and just kind of in my closing argument so the teachings the terravada teachings but I think this is true across all Buddhist traditions or at least most of them but certainly zen included there's one suta in which it says nothing whatsoever is to be clung to as I or mine Whoever understands this, who realizes this, practices this has realized all the teachings. So if we understand the eye, an attachment to the eye in one form or another as being the basis of nondual, the basis of dualism, that separation of subject and object, right? embedded in the terra teachings. It's just this very clear statement in whatever way one is identified with awareness or knowing that's a problem and and so nothing whatsoever is to be clung to or adhereed to as I is just the essence of it all. And what I'm suggesting is that there are many ways to come and realize that and at different levels of realization and just as Sam said, you know, in in all the in zoen and in vapos, there's a lot of there's a lot of practice one has to do to really fully embody that understanding. One thing that I think sometimes you don't acknowledge Sam is that even within classical Zoen teachings there are a lot of different practices which are supportive for that nondual awareness you know which is the essence you know of the pointing out and to not acknowledge that they are actually a necessary part of reaping the benefits of the nondual awareness because unless there's the capacity in the mind and its qualities like mindfulness and like concentration, how often somebody without any of that background, without any of that those qualities ities of mind. I think it would be extremely rare for people to actually remain or even remember nondual awareness in the busyiness of their lives. So one example and this is something I love from from Duj Zo Chen master when he talked about the undercurrent of thoughts not not the big dramatic thoughts but just kind of a pretty steady stream of very light thoughts going through the mind throughout the day that we are mostly unaware And he called these the thieves of meditation, >> the [clears throat] thieves of non-dual meditation. >> So for somebody who has not developed the capacity through mindfulness and some steadiness of mind, there is no way they're going to be aware of this undercurrent of thought. And it's very prevalent. And in all of those moments of undercurrent which is not which are not being recognized because they're very subtle very light people are not in non-dual awareness. >> Yeah. >> They are lost in those thoughts. And so what I'm suggesting is that I have a tremendous appreciation for kind of the Zoen teachings, you know, and I benefit a lot from them and but they they don't exist independent of all these supportive practices which make them pos which make that aspect possible for people to really uh integrate in their lives. In just the same way, a lot of the vaposa practice, what we call vaposa practice in the beginning, and the beginning can be a while, it is the development of a lot of these supportive practices. And there's a Zoen I think Tokoorgian talked about this and it's probably in the Zochen texts where they talk about fabricated and unfabricated mindfulness you know and fabricated is kind of what you're suggesting I think characterizes vaposima where there has to be kind of some effort made and unfabricated mindfulness where it's just there there's No effort required. Well, in vapasana there is also that move from fabricated to unfabricated mindfulness. Okay, that's being said. Then I agree with you that there can be subtle dualistic perceptions just like the undercurrent of thought that mostly go unrecognized whether one's pract they're called uh cognitive distortions and they're really explained quite definitively. although can be a little difficult to unpack in the very first discourse of the middle end saints where the Buddhist acknowledging and pointing out these very subtle cognitive disc distortions that may be unrecognized. So I agree with you you know that that can be there but they are also addressed within the terravada tradition and one does have to penetrate through them. So now Sam is going to probably have to rebut something I just said [laughter] the temp the temptation is excruciating Joseph >> he will be the bigger man and let the other president >> I think this is I think this is >> I will be the emptier man. I think this is a fine place to end. [laughter] >> I will just express appreciation for the dialogue Joseph. >> These videos we've gone round and round this track. [laughter] >> Yeah, it's always a pleasure. >> I'll express the same appreciation for the dialogue. Uh and for both of you, >> so I I would suggest something to the listeners. >> Yeah. you know, acknowledging that we've been having these discussions for years and, [clears throat] you know, sometimes with different flavors and this and that. What I would suggest is in whatever has been heard and any any thread of any of it that seems of interest just to pursue that thread kind of don't have to kind of hold it all and try to figure out right and wrong. And if there's something in what was said that was helpful for the practice to relieve suffering in some way, uh, go for it, you know, and just explore and see where it leads. >> Joseph and Sam, thank you both. >> Thank you, Dan.