A retreat questioner finds the disentanglement-from-experience emphasis of non-dual practice dry. Lucille reframes 'not caring' not as a method but as a consequence — what naturally falls away once one understands that what we truly want is not an experience of mind or body.
Transcript
I would like to know why there is such a focus in non-duality in general, or in your meditation, why there is such a focus on disentanglements from experiences? On not caring about experiences from the mind, not caring about experiences from the body, because for me the practice practices we have here, they all feel a little bit dry. Let me explain, because the way you formulate it, not caring about the feeling, about the mind... What we talk about here is that what we really want, what we really desire cannot be found as an experience of the mind or of the body. That's all. The not caring is not something we suggest, is something that happens as a result of our understanding. In India they call it vairagya, dispassion. This dispassion is not the product of an activity. But, that's why it's not suggested here to be dispassionate, what is suggested here is to understand that that which you really care for, cannot be found in the mind or in the body As a result it creates an effortless detachment and besides I don't know whether you remember a question that was asked yesterday about celebration? And it is not meant here, to say no to the senses or to the mind, but to see the senses and the mind as a celebration. It could be said that whatever is perceived, the thoughts and the senses, celebrate the absolute that perceives them. So the carelessness is not a carelessness. It's not a lack of love. It's just that the love goes to love itself. For instance, we don't love people. It's a mistake to love people. If you love people, you'll be disappointed. We love the love in people and it's normal. For instance, ask yourself, do I love hatred? Do you love hatred? No. So if people hate you, do you love that? No. It's normal. Nobody loves hatred. Love loves love. Love doesn't love hatred. So love is careless about hatred or about the lack of love. So what we love in people is the love itself. The love is in hiding in some, so we try to get in touch with it behind the veil, behind the armour. But nobody loves. So we don't care about the lack of love. It would be in fact unloving to answer hatred with love because it would teach the wrong lesson. It would teach the wrong lesson. We don't condone stupidity because if we condone stupidity people remain in their stupidity. We don't condone, I don't know, arrogance, or because we encourage people in their ignorance. So now, you may feel dryness here because of the approach, at some point which we use logic. So here it's like a buffet. It's not a restaurant which has a fixed menu. It's a buffet. So when you have a buffet, you have a large variety of options. And at this buffet, each of you take whatever you like. The goal is not to be hungry. It doesn't matter what you eat. You see? So there is for... there are kind of... so, some people like it dry, some people like it wet. You see? So don't complain if I am dry with logic because some people like it. Take the wet food, leave the dry one, you see? And you know, if it is too dry, go to a different restaurant. Nobody forces you here. You see what I mean? It's not the only restaurant in town. The good restaurant is the one that when you like the food and when you leave, you feel satisfied. That's that's the idea. But as I have said also the dryness that comes from the use of logic. We have to understand why we use logic here. It's not that with logic we can go to the truth, but with logic we can dismantle belief systems that have been built using logic. So we use the same logic which has been used to build belief systems to dismantle them, to deconstruct them. You see because logic is not that important, because first of all there are all kinds of logic - first order logic, excluded middle logic etc. Boolean logic, quantum logic, there are all kinds of possibility, fuzzy logic, there are all kinds of possibilities and I am not an expert. In other words, the choice of a logic is somehow arbitrary. Therefore, logic is not universal. Therefore, it's not legitimate to use logic to... one kind of logic to go to the absolute. It's not possible. However, it is legitimate to use the same logic which has been used to build a belief system to deconstruct it, so that we can be taken back to the foundation of this belief system and then experientially see whether this system has a solid foundation or whether it is built on sand. So logic is a negative approach to deconstruct to leave you to the threshold of the experience of your true nature. What takes you there on the other side is grace ultimately. It may be apparently, something you hear, something poetic, or something that makes you feel: 'Yes, that's true, yes, that's my experience!' It can be something emotional, something poetic, a word, a gesture, a smile, and it doesn't matter, but it's always grace that takes you beyond the threshold. And that's not dry. The point I'm making, it's not dry. Also, you have to take into account your own expectations. Often we expect a physical, physically rewarding experience. Physically, I mean in the terms of bodily sensations, feelings. I wanted... Okay, that's the poem I talked about by Rumi, translated by Coleman Barks. This we have now is not imagination. This is not grief or joy. Not a judging state or an elation or sadness. Those come and go. This is the presence that doesn't. It's dawn, Husam, here in the splendour of coral, inside the friend in the simple truth of what Halaj said. What else could human beings want? When grapes turn to wine, they are wanting this. When the night sky pours by, it's really a crowd of beggars, and they all want some of this. This that we all now created. This that we are, now created the body cell by cell, like bees building a honeycomb. The human body and the universe grew from this, not this from the universe and the human body. That's not dry.