Sadhguru and Namit Malhotra on the Ramayana, Faith, and Creation

Coming off Coat airport and an hour away from there is this beautiful, gorgeous setting called the Isha Yoga Center. [Music] I could never have imagined that I'd witness the Ady Yogi statue that sits tall amongst all of us. [Music] There is a great feeling of divinity and power. Incredibly excited to be here. [Music] >> Such a pleasure to see you. [Music] >> Why me? Like how did I get to do this? Simple realities should have happened long time ago. >> How did you feel when you saw it >> in all this action? Don't miss the quality of Rama. It's time we present it in a proper sense. >> Why is Rama so different from you know any other hero >> among the men? He is risen. He's a purushama. He is the best of the men. I don't know how he actually became Rah. I know him very well. >> Idea was that there had to be a lot of shades of Rahman in terms of why he was who he was. >> You ask the next generation if they want to go to heaven. They will ask is their Wi-Fi. >> We're seeing a lot of young people of India today. You're talking about me or not forever young. [Music] Namaskar. >> Namaskar Sabguru. >> Uh thank you for giving us the time to speak with you today. It's a pleasure for not just me but my entire family to have this honor to be able to speak to you and get some uh guidance on uh you know this very important journey that uh I've set foot on which is to bring uh Ramayana to the world and it is in that context that I wanted to uh learn from you you know and gain from you some perspective some insight which I think is uh very very pertinent in the world in which we live. Uh in fact I wanted to start with asking you about uh the fact that you know with all that's happening in the world my genuine feeling is that while we've been in the midst of you know curating and finding a path to bringing the Ramayana to the world in the best form uh I wanted to know how what you feel with what you see in the world and its relevance and you know where you think uh the world is going and how the world can learn from what we have. You're a typical Indian who packs 10 questions into one question. >> Okay. About uh relevance of Ram. It's in various spheres. One fundamental thing we need to understand is this is not a culture which just celebrates material success. It celebrates that a human being as a life is a success because if you look at Rama's life well at the age of 19 he is coronated and then whatever due to political reasons he's sent to you know to the forest in exile along with his young wife who is not a tribal woman. She's a princess. People don't understand what it means to go live in the forest because they have seen fanciful images of certain television shows and things where Ramasita having a honeyimon in the forest. That's not how life is in the forest. I've lived in the jungles. If I go there for 3 weeks, stay by myself and come back home, even my mother wouldn't recognize me. Head to toe with swollen insect bites and works. That's how it is. Especially for a woman, a princess, it would be totally different. So, it was not a pleasure trip to the forest. The idea is to make them suffer. And there he goes and about to complete his uh exile period and uh towards the end I think his wife gets kidnapped and uh then he comes all the way south Sri Lanka. You should have heard this. I was speaking in a small town in Andhra Pradesh called Nelor. One little girl, one 13, 14 year old girl, school girl asking me, "Sguru, they say Rama walked all the way from Iayodha to Sri Lanka. How is it possible? Over 3,000 kilometers. How could he walk? Is it true?" I said, "See, you're a little girl right now. After some time, you'll find a man, maybe a husband. And I'm asking you, see, he's a king. His wife got kidnapped. He could have found solutions in the neighborhood. But he pursued his wife matters so much to him. He walked all the way down, not with an army, just with his brother, builds an army in the south, fights a battle, and takes her back. I'm asking you as a when you become a young woman, would you want a man who will walk 3,000 kilometers to get you back if you will get lost? Or do you want a man, okay, she's gone and find a local solution? Of course, she knows she would like a man who pursues her. Well, doesn't matter which culture, where you argue, ask any woman, what kind of man would you want? They would want Rama. Risking his own life. He walked all the way down and got her back. That's a man every woman wants, isn't it? So, is he relevant? In every way he is relevant because first of all in this civilization we don't write history as just a bunch of facts. If you look at the western history this king came killed so many people conquered this land then he died then he went on his son came this nonsense that nonsense. What is the point? 6 7,000 years ago a man lived or did not live. What relevance is it to me? So here we wrote history in an organic way that it has relevance today. It was written in a subjective manner not just objective way of writing facts. Well, somehow the western education has made us believe objectivity is more important than subjectivity. Objectivity is important when we handle material aspects of life. But when we handle human beings, subjectivity is most important. How I experience my life right now is very important. Not the question of what kind of chair I'm sitting on. All right? So this whole way of presenting our historical situations in a way it's relevant subjectively is being ridiculed and nonsensified by the world. It's time we present it in a proper sense. The simple fact is this that he was willing to put himself, his wife and his children through all the troubles to make sure that he created a just society of the day. Even today if you utter the word raaraja, it means a fair and just society. That's what it means. It's become synonymous with justice and well-being of the people. In the interest of well-being of the people, if you put your own family through lots of troubles and yourself through lot of pain, do you want that kind of a leader or do you want someone who puts his family ahead of his people? Who do you want? Ask anybody even in a democratic society, who do they want? They want that man who would risk his family's life for the well-being of the people. And that's Rama. Is he relevant? Absolutely relevant. So that brings me to another you know connective piece that you know as we bring this or uh you know communicate this uh to the world you know India obviously is shining in in many different lights and uh it's an area where we believe our uh culture is is one that we're incredibly sensitive about. We're very uh we have people like of the country that are very particular about being sensitized or hurt uh by the smallest of things but we don't take enough pride and present that in the same way that uh you know other countries or cultures would do with their own let's say superheroes or whatever. If you think about America, they present their superheroes >> non-existent non-existent superheroes. >> Non-existent superheroes as almost like their gods. And that is where uh I want to say get your perspective on you know either why is it or how do we change that because uh see unfortunately we have uh slowly curated a world where gentleness is seen as weakness. We have always been told that we don't go like this into some place. We go like this. We don't go like this because we thought that's gross. And it is gross. But today everybody is like this. All right. No, we are like this because our whole civilization has grown with the fundamental that in terms of our subjectivity being less is more. Being nothing is everything. The word Shiva means that which is not. That's aspiration. That is the aspiration. So we don't want to be more than you. We will feel it's very obscene. If I sit here with you, I want to sit on a bigger chair and act like I'm bigger than you. We see that as an obscene act. So we always uh so this is misunderstood as we don't have pride in who we are. We have lot of pride in who we are. But our pride is not an obscene pride as being superior to you. Our pride is just uh we value we value things in a certain way. When I say we value, why is Rama celebrated though his entire life is a series of tragedies. Loses his wife, loses his kingdom, loses his wife, loses loses his children, almost killed his children, never got to see his dear wife again. Obviously, she was very dear to him. if he has to walk 3,000 kilometers to get her, all right, to fight a battle to get her. But she he never got to see her again. She died in the jungle. So it's a series of tragedies. Not just that, till recently he even had real estate problems in this country. Only now he seems to be settled in somehow. Even his birth is questioned by our present day politicians. But did he exist or not? So what is our subjective history or a subjective presentation of our history is being labeled as mythology by our so-called historians. Though there is a humongous amount of evidence to show and above all it's it's there in the living memory of the people. It didn't suddenly pop up because I read one book. It's something that's been transmitted from generation to generation as a living memory of history. But we don't value that. Just because a scholar wrote a book that becomes true. My grandmother told me this is what I saw and it's not true. Come on. Where are we coming from? Unfortunately, we have gotten lost in this nonsense. So, it is definitely time that we presented our history which is organic and of subjective relevance. to the world in that context. And it's very important the world begins to see this that the lives of people of the past must be learnings for the f people of the future. Otherwise, what is the point of the silly facts that you read in a history book? >> Sure. And that is uh something that I think over the last 4 500 years of our Indian history because of the Mughal invasions and then the British rule I think has continued to build that uh victim mindset which I think is changing in the generation of today which I think is a great uh amplification of India and what Indianness means. I think uh we're seeing a lot of young people of India today take a lot of pride about you know >> you're talking about me or no okay I'm sorry >> you're forever young I think one of the biggest uh responsibility is that anybody who's playing the the character of some of these great uh you know people like Ram or Rama or Ra or Anuman and Sitha you know are always going to be subject to a lot of public scrutiny and criticism. Anybody who steps into those what I would call nobody can ever be Rama in the world you know that is a very >> special. >> Why do you say that? >> Well, I think because the idealism and the and the reality of Rama >> see we must understand that we do not see Rama as God. Let's understand this properly. We call him Maria Puram. Among the men, he is risen. He's a purushama. He is the best of the men. Why do you think best of the men are history? Why can't they exist? Now the you must understand the wisdom of the civilization. Not to just paint him as God, but to say he is a great man, a risen man. risen in such a way he looks godlike. This very important because if you make a god out of him, you'll hang his picture on the wall and that's about it because he is God and you are you. >> Yeah. >> You can't be him. He's no more an aspirational uh uh you know figure but he is a man who rose. Now he's an aspirational figure and that's very important that people should aspire to become like him. This is not a civilization where we just look up to God and pray. We go to the temple have dion. We want to embibe. We want to --- d obviously is great in terms of the context of why people need that but humans are not without flaws and the fact that the journey to transcend your life when you make mistakes and you have flaws in them and if to in order to become a maradapuram you have to >> go through the journey of life and learn from the mistakes that one makes >> and that's a pretty >> this this has become a very American fetish you have to learn from mistakes. If you are the kind to learn from mistakes, don't ever try skydiving. >> Sure. >> One mistake you make, that's the last mistake you make. With a lot of things in life, it's like that. It's become the any CEO I talked to today, they you must learn from your mistakes. I said you must learn not to make mistakes. Hello. I'm always looking how never to make a mistake. You make mistakes and you're going to learn from it. How many lifetimes are you going to come back? I'm asking. Life is so brief in this. If you're going to go on making mistakes because only that way you learn. Oh, I'm very sorry for such people. So the people that have to play these you know a huge uh who have this huge responsibility to fulfill in the shoes of uh you know like a Rama or a Anumana or any of these you know who've created such a such a huge example I I think the point is that how do we try and ensure that they are seen in a light that is uh they must act as a north as becoming a marata pushup like There people who are sort of coming they >> if they have sense they should become it's an opportunity that you get to play the role of Rama you better transform yourself if you don't do that when will you do it in your life so at the same time there will be a certain unrealistic expectation well I think uh you know earlier on there was antiaro in the Talibu placeh And Pradesh and Telana people worshiped him as Krishna because he played in some 15 or 16 movies as Krishna. Everybody thought he's Krishna and they just put up this huge cutouts of him playing the flute like this and standing and he won the election outright swept the election. So uh at one time it was absolutely so. Now I don't think it is so but to some extent it's still there. If you act like Rama in a movie then I expect at least you have some gentleness that I wouldn't like to see you because somewhere it kind of hurts me because I saw your face as Rama. I visualized you as Rama. Now then if you don't do that but it's unfair to the actor because after all for him it's a profession. He's just acting. But hope acting like Rama brings some elements of Rama into the actor which will be wonderful for him but it's a unfair expectation. So I think they all understand the responsibility that it takes to be playing that but I think people are still going back 20 years 30 years and sort of pulling out you know instances of saying because of that how can you do that today that's the point I'm going to make that transformation may have happened but that's >> it is not a fair judgment of an actor because he acted in some way >> in some other movie in some other >> no he acted in a certain role of let's say being Rama You expect him to become fully Rama. No, tomorrow in another movie he may act as Rahana. >> All right. Some other production he may they may choose him as Raana. So that is a professional actor. But at the same time your movie runs because of people not because of actors. Let's get this right. Not because of actors or directors the movie runs. It's because of people the movie runs. So their expectations cannot be completely brushed aside. It's a very honorous expectation. But uh I think uh the actor and the director and everybody making Ramayan should embibbe a little bit of Rama's quality. >> It'll be good for them. But as I say, I'll repeat once again. It's an unfair expectation. But that's the way the world is. as we were going through the journey because I was trying to bring a lot of international talent you know very very highly proficient uh you know department heads in action and music and they have all had this curiosity to understand the uniqueness of uh why is Rama so different from you know any other hero or any other person and uh in one of the meetings I was talking to this action director who came to India interestingly who loved the Ramayan moved his whole family to Mumbai. His kids went to school in Mumbai and he stayed there for a year just for the love of Ramayana. And in one conversation I happened to sort of speak with him and uh walk him through my explanation of how does Rama who's a human take on some of the biggest battles and how he operates with fear or how does he translate fear and one of the examples I gave him I said you know everybody's got fear especially if we portray Rama as a human it's natural to have fear but here is someone who's taking on some of the biggest combat some of the biggest uh conflict ICT and through that is maintains a very calm sense of who he is and recognizes his own fear. So my description to him was that you know imagine if a lion walked into a conversation the first reaction we would have is of fear. We would be scared. >> Now if a lion walks in here I wouldn't be scared because I know it's a creature of technology because this is a tiger country. >> Let's say a tiger came in. I would be scared for a lion or a tiger. But uh what I'm saying is that but if Rama was sitting here, what he would do is he would recognize his own vulnerability and he knows his vulnerability. But I think what I believe his unique superpower is that he'd be able to look through the tiger or the lion's eyes and recognize the vulnerability of that living being as well and what fear it has. And therefore when he goes into combat he's not somebody who's who has to be the most muscular or the most powerful. He is just somebody who just knows intuitively in his own energy that uh what is his weakness and what the weakness of his opponent is. And that sort of I think for the person that I spoke to and I obviously made that up and I don't know whether I made sense or not but but uh that's how I felt uh honestly that uh that's why he would be who he is that why in spite of there being reason for fear he would transcend that uh because he'd be able to see the fear of the other living organism even if it is bigger or stronger than him. Well, for that you don't have to be Rama. Any good hunter or warrior, that's exactly what you would do. That's what I would do in any given situation in my life. That >> Sabur, there's only one of you. >> We can breed many. We uh many are in training. Some are freaking some are growing. Sure. You know, >> as of today, as the world knows it, as we all know, there's only one of you. So, >> so what I'm saying is that's that's okay. That is the quality of a warrior. That is a quality of a hunter that if you do not know the vulnerability of the other, you cannot dominate that situation. But that is not what Rama is. That quality is there because he's a warrior. Definitely it's there. But that's not the significance of his life. The significance of his life is if he if he needs to kill something or someone he will do it without anger, without hatred, without any kind of resentment, but because it's needed to establish what he saw as dharma. Dharma means not a philosophy or a religion as unfortunately it's going around today. The word dharma literally means the law. When we say a law, there are many kinds of laws. Whole lot of laws are transactional in nature. Right now you're in India, you are supposed to drive on the left side of the street. But if you go and see the street, you won't understand which side to drive because there are a whole lot of people who don't understand which side to drive. So this is a transactional thing. Why should I lie drive on the left side? Is it a great thing to drive on the left side? No, it's just it's an agreement between you and me that I will drive on the left side. If you're coming on the opposite side, you drive on your left side so that me and you don't go boom into each other. It's a it's an agreement between two drivers. But some people don't keep the agreement. So a lot of people keep dying. All right? So these are transactional laws like this. We have raja dharma, we have praa dharma, we have various kinds of dharmas, different kinds of laws for different transactions in life. For a husband, one kind of dharma, for a wife, another kind of dharma. For children, one kind of dharma, for a teacher, one kind of dharma, student another kind of dharma. So that that function happens with least amount of friction. Because human transactions every simple thing can become a friction. How to perform this transaction without friction? For this there is a law. These laws can be changing according to times. But there is one called sanatana dharma which again is going through huge misinterpretation today. Sanatana dharma means it is an eternal law. That means it is not a transactional law. Transactional laws keep changing. Say there are new tariffs. What can we do? These are transactional laws. It keep changing. But there is an existential law which doesn't change. If you are not in tune with that, no matter what's happening in your transactions, you still suffer your life because existentially you're not in tune. Existentially there's friction within you. So sanatana dharma is an existential law which is eternal in nature. The word sanatan means eternal. So it's not a religion. It is not a philosophy or an ideology. It is by keen observation of life. We've observed that a few things don't change. If you're not in tune with those laws say right now there's a law of gravity. If you're not in tune with it, you will fall down. Nobody has to throw you down. Hello. If you just wrongly handle gravity when you stand up you will fall down. So just like this for every aspect of life there is a dharma they recognize that but they recognize these are transactional laws but there are certain things which are existential so that we recognize as sadhana dharma. So in a way Rama is trying to establish various levels of loss for that society or in other words he's trying to manifest civilization in an ordinary in an orderly manner for the times that he was in. This is 7,000 years ago when the rest of the world were still hunters and gatherers. Here we talking about very sophisticated thinking about how to civilize a whole subcontinent. That's what he's looking at. He continuously talking about dharma because of that. And he himself understands unless he's an embodiment of that dharma, he cannot manifest that. So he lives that way that he's an embodiment of dharma. He knows it's unfair to send his wife away when she's pregnant. He knows absolutely but he sends her away because the political situ situation is such that the people won't trust him if he keeps her here against his own will against his own emotions because a man who walks 3,000 kilometers down south fights a battle takes back his wife she matters to him she's not just another woman. >> Sure. Can we also shed some light in your mind based on someone like Rahana? Because you know in many ways when I started on the journey of uh Ramayana my first question to the writers to the people was you like why did Rama have to come and why did he have to come in this form and then you sort of learn a lot about Rahana and his uh power and his uh what he had done in the world and why you know ultimately Rama or Vishnu's avatar as Rama had to come in the particular form to take on Ramana who wasn't who was in his strongest uh place and that also had been created through uh boon that Rahana had got from Brahma and from uh and the weapons that he had manifested with Shiva you --- oes and uh you know in many ways he worships Shiva and pleases him in many ways. Then Shiva asks what do you want? Ask whatever you want. You know what he asks? I want your wife. This is the kind of man he is. He's got everything. He's got a great kingdom. He's built a great city. He's a scholar. He's a, you know, he's a devotey. But he's got this problem. When Shiva asks, "What do you want?" If you are a normal man, you would ask for whatever you need in your life. He says, "I want your wife." Because she was already promised. He can't go back. He said, "Okay, take her." Then he starts walking. Where is she? She's near Manasur. So he starts walking in that direction. Then Parvati comes to know that he's coming to take her forcefully because I said okay because he can't go back on his word. He said ask whatever you want. Just misuse of that. See when I say please what do you want? Ask whatever you want. You say I want my you I want your head. What to do? I'm saying this kind but this is a civilization once you give your word you can't go back so he says I want your wife he says okay take her then as he's walking towards manasurov the ghas shivas the people they mislead him towards raastal what is today known as raashtal so parvati sees that he's coming and if he doesn't find her there he will come back here so She picks picks up a frog and turns that into a very beautiful woman. So frog is called Manduka and she becomes Mandodari and he takes her thinking she is Parvati. Mandodari is a very beautiful and a very very wise woman. Frogs are wise. You know the >> I didn't know that. You didn't know that because you come from the west where if you kiss a frog it'll become a prince. Here it became a princess. There's a older story than the prince story. >> So he went there thought this is the Parvati and took her home and married her. So Mandodori became his wife very beautiful and very wise but he could not make use of her wisdom. Even when she when he brought Sitha she was the one who told him just go and hand her over. Any woman in the kingdom is available for you. Why are you doing this? This will be your nemesis. In many ways she tried to tell him because she foresaw what's coming but he couldn't because this is the problem of various good qualities. You have strength, you have wisdom, you have intelligence, you have many uh you know various faculties which are extraordinary. Now you think you are better than anybody in the universe. Now this is a bad thing. This is all Rahana's problem is. He thinks he is the superman of the day. But in the end, it proves that he is not the superman. Superman is a gentle, quiet man. He doesn't have this kind of power. But he has penetration because he's quite balanced. Above all balance, this is continuously I'm telling everybody. You may have intelligence, you may have talent, you may have various qualities. But if there is no balance, your intelligence will work against you. This is a Rahana's life. His own intelligence, his own talent, his own capabilities worked against him because no balance. Rama is balance absolute. He may not be as strong as Rahana. That's how Ramayani Ramayana depicts him that he's not as strong as Rahana. In many ways he's not as skilled as Rahana but he is balanced. So when I when we conceived uh the this whole aspiration of bringing Ramaya to the world, one of the important ingredients that I wanted to make sure that we had was truly a global participation, a lot of key talent from you know different faculties in film making process who've got tremendous experience and skill set to sort of collaborate with our own talented very talented people in India itself to sort of bring it to the world so that it feels feels like it's something from India but for the world cuz it's something that's a very strong and a vibrant part of our culture but it's something that we believe every human being on the planet needs to hear about it and consume it and and therefore we try to make it a global event in a way that uh there's a feeling of involvement and engagement by the people uh in all the different parts of the world in in your mind because you also got this global you experience and you've obviously spoken to people all over the world. What would be your guidance to us in as we take Ramayana to the world? What should you be cognizant of or how should we make sure that we land it correctly for those cultures and those people for for everybody basically. See for cinematic success there may be a certain way of thinking but a time is coming in the world where as lot of gross things become popular a whole lot of people want to see something subtle and wonderful to blossom also that aspiration that longing is spreading significantly in the world just to give you a perspective see in 2020 24 our video views are 5.23 billion B and this is only on our platforms. There are at least over thousand other platforms which are propagating our material because we left it free for everybody to use it. We don't know what's their reach. Nobody knows the WhatsApp reach. So this is only possible because there's an aspiration in people for something more gentle, something more true, not something that's you versus me, something that's inclusive. There is a huge aspiration right now if you see here or in Bangalore where our centers are every day thousands of people. The number of people the footprint that we have here nowhere in Tamil Nadu or in Bangalore. The footprint that we have anywhere in Karnataka neither a cinema theater nor a shopping mall nor a temple anybody has that kind of daily foot footfall. This is because there is an aspiration in people which is not fulfilled. So that aspiration is not to be neglected. He must show wisdom. He must show balance. He must show gentleness. At the same time, he capable of doing what is needed on the battlefield. That should come out. He shouldn't become just boom boom boom, you know, >> because that aspiration has remained unfulfilled in the geopolitics of the world. That aspiration has remained unfulfilled in the general politics of most nations. So people are hungry for that and that is when I would feel Rama's message Rama's life as a message would have the right kind of impact rather than making him one more superhero. >> Oh that's incredibly valuable what you just said because I'm actually I'm relieved also because that's the path we are on. So I'm uh I feel good about uh that we're in sync in uh in following what you're what you've just expressed because that is different. The fact that Rama is gentle and he is fair and he has a life which is an example to lead and learn from I think is very profound and that I genuinely believe is uh why it is different to >> nobody else in the world like why is why does he after all these thousands of years still keeps his uh uniqueness in terms of and why that belief system continues to be rising uh then >> so you must understand this this civilization's approach to life will be relevant today will be relevant thousand years later because a human being wants to be free. Free from what? Well, if I tie you up and tie you to the tree, you want to be free from that. But if you're released from that, you if you understand you are tied up within yourself, you want to be free from that. Freedom is such an intrinsic thing. It is not a it is not a French idea though they claim they only thought of freedom first. We've been talking about MTI and moka forever. All right. So freedom from what it's like this you know our programs our in engineering programs are mandatory in southern Indian prisms. At one time I also did this programs in United States in uh Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Tennessee and these places. Whenever I entered prison, initial programs were done by me. When I entered the prison, if you really look at the organization of the prison at in central prison, which was the first program I did, we just bought a it was not this much. It was just 14 acre piece of land. While the mountains were beautiful, but there was only one tree in the entire land. I went to the Quamto central prison about 120 acres of land and there are few dozen trees each one of them all all of them over 100 years old rain trees each one of them covering half an acre to 3/4 of an acre I thought wow we could exchange this land the asham land with the prison land it's in the heart of the city and the trees my problem for the trees to get trees like this how long will it take 100 years I won't be around to see those trees that big in the asham I know even now I won't be around somehow there are trees now not very big do you see all of them all of them are not more than 25 years old so I thought this is a great place the prison and it's very well organized believe me prison is well organized much better the organized in any part of the society Somebody will open the door for you. Somebody will close it for you. Somebody will switch off the light for you. Food comes bang on time. It'll never happen in any home that precision. The food comes exactly on time. I thought this is a really good organization and this is what we would like. But if you enter the prison, I would never come out of a prison visit without tears in my eyes because there is pain in the air. Just pain in the air. You people won't understand. You have to go there and see. Everything looks normal but there just pain in the air simply because within oneself you know you're not free. How much pain means you cannot you cannot articulate this. It just tears my heart when I go there. Everything seems to be normal. In the prison people are much fitter and healthier than the common society outside. Everybody is very fit, wellnourished but pain because freedom is such an in intrinsic necessity within a human being. Freedom does not just mean roaming around in the field within yourself to be free. We recognize this. The most important quality for a human being is liberation. This is why moka mti so important. This is the most important thing in many many ways. Rama is just an embodiment of this. He is an embodiment of living mti. We call jven mkti. When you're alive, you're free. You are free from your anger. You're free from your angst. You're free from your fear. You're free from resentment. You're free from all the things which make a human being nasty. Rahana has many more qualities in terms of accomp accomplishments. Rahana has many more accomplishments than Rama because Rama was a young boy. 19year-old boy got coronated and 14 years he spent in the forest. He's lost out on life in many ways. But he is free within himself of all these things that Ramana suffers from. That is the story. That is the man and that is the ideal. That is the aspiration of this civilization. That should become the aspiration of the world. And it will because in a couple of generations I would say 50 to 70 years time over 70% of the people on the planet will not identify with any religion. Already it is so in United States where you are over 29 to 30% of the people are writing in their application forms no religion. In UK over 36% are writing no religion. In western Europe, 43% is writing no religion. Many others don't dare to say it because in their societies they will be finished if they say that. But in another 50 years time or 70 years time over 70% of the world's population will be saying no religion. Then the only thing that will be relevant is that civilization which treats freedom or liberation as the highest goal. As we go, as technologies evolve, our survival becomes easier and easier. The aspiration will be freedom. You know, we've obviously, you know, one of the days I spent some time with my father and I was joking --- ks to you know my own kids being named Ram and you know as Raaman Ragir as an example because I'm asking Sguru how would you explain that to me like how does that happen like why me like how did I get to I don't I don't have the answer to that I'm uh I'm trying to find that answer that how did that say uh don't try to look for mystical reasons for simple realities. This should have happened long time ago because we've been so brainwashed or hypnotized that in these 80 years or nearly 80 years we've not produced a movie of some substance and Rama Krishna Shiva we have not done this. Yeah, >> those who attempted it were very rudimentary efforts that were done but still those things had such a massive impact when Mahabharat was going on on the television. The streets of India would be empty total complete no people on the street. It had such a grip. That is a level of aspiration that is there. But unfortunately, we've left them unfulfilled. And uh don't try to try to find some grand reasons because grand reasons will bomb. It is sensible. Said somebody thinks that it is needed and you start doing it. It's great. That's important. There is no This is the whole thing about this civilization. There's no God-given reason. Your life is your karma. There is dharma and there is karma. Dharma means that which liberates you. Karma means that which entangles you. Now the whole endeavor is how to perform karma in such a way that it is liberating. This is Rama's life. >> Make that yours. Don't entangle yourself. Some divine calling came. No. some sense arose within you. I'm glad. Let that sense prevail and let your karma beame become a liberating force, not an entangling force. Because if you say some other force, it will become entangling. This is your karma. This is what Rama is trying to uh you know manifest that. See it is through activity of the mind, emotion, energy and physical body that people get entangled with life. Using that activity which is karma to liberate ourselves is what Rama's life is about. Performing karma in such a way it's liberating. Rahana also is performing karma and is more accomplished but he gets all entangled. Rama performs the same karma of battle, of pursuit, of administration and many other things, politics and whatever. But his karma liberates him. May your karma liberate you. Don't get entangled in all kinds of fancy ideas. >> Thank you. I I'll remember that. So in terms of you know there's a lot of Indians who've uh also accomplished a lot in in the west in you know really becoming part of that culture because as Indians one of the things we all know we are very adaptable and we are able to take and accept a lot of uh change very proactively and I feel like when we when we bring you know Rama into the world when we bring it to before we take it to let's say the rest of the world at least the Indian origin people in all the different parts of the world which is a lot of them you know uh who've somewhat been further away from India for them maybe 30 40 50 years who've now got kids there you know who sort of grow up as either Americans or British or whatever how do we try and communicate uh the essence of why Ramayan will be relevant to them and to their children and and and how do we get them to take a little bit of pride in uh as you you know the more I've interacted I've always found them to be not dismissive that would be a strong word but a bit aloof like they've sort of kind of dist themselves and we are not Indian anymore like you know like if there's a it's a fun conversation in the UK that there's an India and England match going on cricket match and uh some of my friends and their children like who would you support but do you know me and my kids will train India >> America doesn't have a cricket >> I'm saying UK >> no I'm saying America doesn't have a cricket team fortunately and they may have >> they may have one soon so you know the thing is that you sort of have that dichotomy and you know because it feels so Indian like Raman and one of my attempts has been to try and make it feel more universy rather than you know because it's gets shrouded in See uh let's understand this. There's no dichotomy in this. There was a time 250 300 years ago. Every one of them in Europe and UK there was no America at that time the way it is today. Every one of them wanted to come to India. Why? Whether it was Kodi Gama or a Columbus or a hundred other expeditions which drowned in the oceans, everyone wanted to come to India. Why do you think? Because it was a success story. You must understand whatever your culture, whatever your tradition, whatever great things you have, your literature or music or whatever, nothing will fly unless you're a success story. We were the biggest success story in the world. We were the largest economy in the world. Over 30% of the world's exports went from India. So when that was a thing, everybody wanted to come here. But for whatever reasons, I don't like to blame anybody. For whatever reason reasons, for our own inadequacies, something we allowed other people to destroy us. I don't say they destroyed us. I say we allowed them to destroy us. Now it is time that we build back that success story which we are making a serious effort now. There are many impediments, many challenges but we will we will rise because one problem with India is it's full of genius but not enough organization. There's too much individual genius. Everybody is a genius but you can't organize them. So right now our effort is to organize them so that this genius finds you know expression in a successful manner. Wherever Indians go they're super successful. What is it that they happen to them? They fit into an organization there and suddenly they are super successful. So to make our narratives valuable, whatever silly things that America says, everybody goes for it because success right now it's at least it seems to be the richest nation on the planet. So everybody goes for it. This is how it was with India 250 years ago. But we've lost that mantle. We have to regain that. without regaining that you tell your story as much as you want. Nobody's going to buy it, including your children. See, even you're wearing blue denims. Nothing wrong. I grew up in blue denims. But I'm saying we all wore that because somewhere it represented success, isn't it? So success is needed. Without success, you can't push your narratives. Without success, your stories will not sell. Without success, your culture will not fly. So the success is very important which is beginning to take shape and because people see it is beginning to take shape. There are impediments being thrown in our way from various quarters but we have to rise beyond that. We should not sit here and cry. We should do what we have to do. So about children not taking it up is just this. There is no dichotomy in this. Success is all that anybody values. See the purpose of any given action is success. Isn't it? Whether you do some great thing or you do some simple thing, you want that action to be successful or not. You want it to be successful because the purpose of action is success. So if there is no success, you talk great philosophy. Nobody's going to buy it. Not even your children. I'm saying when I say your children, the next generation, >> anybody. Yeah. Nobody will bite when there is no success story. You must create a success story. Then everybody wants Ramayan. Then everybody wants Mahabharatam. It'll become like that. We should get there in this generation. It's our responsibility as a this is a generational responsibility that we must get this civilization there before forces in the world will start destroying each other because this is the only civilization which has a universal message. Every other message on the planet is you versus me. Either you exist or I exist. But in a nuclear world if we think you exist or I exist, both won't exist. >> Both will go. Yeah. Yes, but this is the only civilization which is talking about the well-being of all life. We've been talking for a long time. Everything is inclusive. This is what the world needs. This the younger generation will quickly recognize if you present it the right way. As a movie maker, you have a tremendous opportunity that you present this the right way that this is inclusive in nature. The man is fighting a battle because there is a certain injustice but he is not battlehungry. He doesn't enjoy killing. He repents killing his own enemy. It's very very important. Right now everywhere the projection is we kill you and we celebrate. No, he did not celebrate. He repents. This is the world we need. This is the leadership we need. This is a consciousness that should take the future because we are empowered like never before. We are not fighting with arrows or spears or swords anymore. Our fight will finish humanity. So the civilizational impact of what it is it has it has to offer the core of the civilization what it has to offer to the world this has to get across. Ramine in many ways is a representation of that and that's valuable for future generations. Future generations if this is presented value properly will value it immensely because right now that consciousness of you versus me everybody hates it. But still people in power are doing it but the common people especially the new generation doesn't like it. They will like Rama but you must present him right. >> What? >> Just on last few words based on what we showed you just the the little title introduction unit and the vision. Do you have any specific words on that? Like how did you feel when you saw it? Well, lot of technology. I think that the way things are done today. But as I would again, I know you already shot most of it, but because a lot of it is in the edit, it's important to grab people's attention with boom boom boom. All right. It's it's needed. I'm not against it. Well uh certain movies in the last five years these bahubalies and whatever whatever have done so well because somewhere it captured people's imagination of being little super just being a man is not enough you need to be little superman I am okay with that but in all this action don't miss the quality of Rama it must always consistently come out because that is the value of the future freedom balance, inclusiveness or the values of the future. Everybody will love it for that. Though it may not be out in the public, bang, bang, bang, maybe out in the public, but I'm telling you in a big way, 60 to 70% of the world's population, except those who are fanatical about whatever they are, 60 to 70% of the world's population, Hindu or otherwise, Indian or otherwise, they have this in their heart. They appreciate inclusiveness. They inc they appreciate balance and they appreciate one who stands as a peaceful figure but willing to fight a battle if it's necessary. So when are you planning the next Shiva movie? So uh you know hopefully we'll come back to you and take your uh guidance on the correct representation of what Shiva means and you know how his energy and his uh depiction should should be out there. Here we are thinking of setting up an IMAX theater where 20 minutes of Shiva, 20 minutes of Rama, 20 minutes of Krishna, 20 minutes of Buddha, 20 minutes of Jesus if necessary bringing out the essence of who they are in a very powerful way. You're the guy to make it. I'm >> We will make it happen, sir. That is something that we do incredibly well and I'm very excited about doing that kind of stuff because I I genuinely believe we'll not just do it for here but it is something that will then travel to the world. >> Thank you. Thank you very much for coming. >> Really appreciate your time. Thank you.